A new theory regarding the Crowley and Mazus timeline.

qenacu · Post by **qenacu** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:21 pm

For those that are unfamiliar with the Crowley and Mazus reincarnation theory, this piece was taken from:

http://suikox.com/spec/crowleymazus.html

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Reincarnation of Crowley and Mazus
Written by SARSadmin
June 18th, 2003

The mountains shook, the skies were shattered, and the ground was torn in IS 340. In the land that is now called the "Badlands" that lies between Toran and Dunan, two powerful sorcerers, Crowley and Mazus, had a magical duel which permanently destroyed the landscape. The force was so extreme that these two sorcerers were themselves destroyed.

The mystery starts five years later in IS 345 when the official timeline states that Crowley is born. Mazus is also born 19 years later in IS 374. Some think this is an error in Konami's part. However, Konami has stated that this is no error. Then what exactly happened? No, it wasn't people with the same name bring born, who also became rivals after beicoming powerful sorcerers. What I speculate is, these two sorcerers reincarnated.

Before proceeding, let me explain reincarnation. As opposed to resurrection which aims to restore life to a dead body, reincarnation aims to transfer a person's soul into another body, or at times into an unborn child. Thus, it doesn't matter if the original person's body is destroyed completely--the person will be able to reincarnate as long as their soul is intact (and they tend to be, unless affected by powerful runes such as the Souleater.

In the case of Crowley and Mazus, the fact that they are powerful sorcerers makes it possible that they would know the secret to reincarnation. Not only that, these two sorcerers are known to be interested in achieving a power equivalent to true runes without the use of one. Thus, it is simple to deduce that conquering their mortality has been one of the main focuses in their decades of research.

Furthermore, Crowley is known in history as the one who invented unite magic. In an "old book" from Suikoden 1, it is said that the "ancient sorcerer Crowley" invented unite magic. Typically, ancient refers to more than a millenium ago--definately not a mere century.

However, the greatest proof that the Crowley and Mazus are the same as the Crowley and Mazus who destroyed Senan in IS 340, is that Crowley and Mazus are rivals now and then. How can people with the same name, same profession, and the same relationship exist unless they actually are the same people? It is silly to say that the Crowley and Mazus from IS 340 are different from the ones we have seen in the games, there simply are too many evidences pointing towards them being the same person--and if that is the case, reincarnation seems to be the method they used.

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This theory makes good sense to me, it sounds reasonable.

Now, the theory that you are about to read, I have written, it shows another possible explantion for the cause of these great events.

I don't know if this idea has been proposed before, so bear with me.

Alright, so I'm watching Back to the Future III the other day (you know the one where they travelled to 1885, the old west), anyway, I was thinking, what if Marty or Doc were not able to get back to the future? Okay, now I know what your just thinking. "Oh no, how tragic! Our heros left in 1885 with the torment of Mad Dog McGrif hot on their heels, chasing after with despair. What kind of back to the future movie is this anyways!? I demand to see the director!" I digress... The point is, ultimately, they would have lived out their lives, and died before they were even born!

Now back to Suikoden. You can probably see where I'm going with this.

We know time travel is possible in the suikoden world; for example when Mcdohl, Viktor, and I think Cleo went back in time the the village of the rune. Or was it Pahn? Well I don't really remember who went back in time. What is important is that time travel is possible in the suikoden world.

Now for whatever reason, accidental or on purpose, you can speculate, Crowley and Mazus travelled back in time, and at some point battled each other. Now, I'm not going to speculate who travelled first, who travelled second, maybe they travelled together, how far back did they travel, how many times did they travel, maybe they even travelled forwards a couple of times, who knows. That's not important for now. For that matter, you can come up with almost any explanation you want to, and they can appear at almost anytime throughout history. But back to the point, I think they ultimatley met their fates at those mountains, and that is their true end. Perhaps they did not reincarnate at all. This idea may not be a popular one, ending two significant characters, but this explanation does show that they could have been born after they died.

I am not against the idea of reincarnation, futhermore I offer nothing to discredit the possibility of reincarnation. I do, however, think that time travel is a plausible idea. Perhaps even more so to reincarnation. Time travel is possible we've known this for some time. Even Vikki, not one of the brightest individuals, travels through time and space quite often. As far as reincarnation goes, to my knowledge, it is not possible in the suikoden world, and is just speculation at this point. But if anyone could do it, I'm sure it would be Crowley and Mazus. On a side note, did anybody see the movie Twelve Monkeys. It had a very interesting story line intertwining past, present, and future.

So what do you think? Does any of this make sense?

Crowley's_Apprentice · Fri May 06, 2005 8:16 pm

Makes total sense to me... but then again I constantly speculate the element of time inside my own head. This is not an impossibility; rather I think you might be onto something. I think the Arcane Reincarnation is a cooler theory, and your theory just depresses me... Crowley actually dying with no way of coming back........

lunamoon5358 · Post by **lunamoon5358** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:23 pm

hmmmm.....i think you may be onto something

JanusThePaladin · Post by **JanusThePaladin** » Sat May 07, 2005 1:44 am

It could possibly be a representation of Merlin. According to the Celts, some stories claimed that Merlin aged backwards, starting old and eventually going young. Something similar could have happened with Mazus/Crowly, starting with their deaths, and moving backwards in age...

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Sat May 07, 2005 3:46 am

It dous seem to make sense..
But they might be clones for that matter.....OMG I THINK I JUST HAVE A THEORY
What if they where clones created by some energy they found in the badlands?Hikusaak perhaps could've created them.... or maybe another organasation?

Otherwise...makes sense

Angelis_Taleria · Post by **Angelis_Taleria** » Tue May 10, 2005 9:41 pm

That's actually one of the more well thought out theories I've read in a long time, although it seems like you had more to say... maybe its just me. I don' t know.

Hero Kev · Post by **Hero Kev** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:10 am

actually for me i think the time travel theory makes more sense.I thought reincarnation was suppose to be without memories.......why is it they still know each other.

okay even if reincarnation is remembering ur memories if im wrong or theirs is special.....why isnt it shown that when they were exactly born on the timeline b4 they dueled....dont tell me they werent famous enough at that time so they werent recorded.........

n why is it that the year that they were reincarnated were so nice...makes Crowley older n Mazus could possibly be his disciple again......maybe it could be Crowley's power is stronger.....if thats the case why would he perish wiv Mazus....becoz i think by then Mazus power would hav been on par wiv Crowley...n they time travelled back for watever reasons...

the reincarnation theory can only be possible if their reincarnation allows them to retain thier memories......n if thats the case then suldnt they hav great knowledge n wisdom the moment they were born? why is it that they seem like they r still practicing n medetating to achieve that power they had at the duel.

Angelis_Taleria · Post by **Angelis_Taleria** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:42 pm

Umm *spelling and grammar ninja slays you*

They were born after they deuled and killed each other. If this is because of time travel or not, no one knows. Mazus' power, however, is not on par with crowley. It's already been stated that Crowley was only using a fraction of his power during the gate rune wars.

the reincarnation theory can only be possible if their reincarnation allows them to retain thier memories......n if thats the case then suldnt they hav great knowledge n wisdom the moment they were born? why is it that they seem like they r still practicing n medetating to achieve that power they had at the duel.

I think Crowley already has as much, if not more, power than was displayed during the deul, but the reason they are prac ticing is because they want to achieve True Rune powers without having True Runes. Even though Crowley is the best, you don't stay the best by being idle. One must train diligently to hold on to greatness like his.

Hero Kev · Post by **Hero Kev** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:20 pm

Umm *spelling and grammar ninja slays you

haha umm ya.....

okay anyway i think the Crowley using a fraction of his power is true definitely it seems......unfortunately it goes wiv wat ive said lol.....Crowley was indeed stronger than Mazus during the Gate Rune War....in suiko 1 n 2 timeline........but im saying Mazus finally became on par wiv Crowley during or after suiko 3......u can see Mazus meditating in suiko 2....he was already the next successor to Crowley's no. 1 position.....

After he became on par they travelled back....most probably not together but chasing another.......n they dueled....if Crowley is indeed much more powerful than Mazus.......wont it be strange he perished wiv Mazus when he could hav destroy him.....funny his powrs destroyed him also...if hes Crowley how could he be defeated by his own power....

Crowley's_Apprentice · Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:11 pm

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course!!!!!!!!!!! That's the only way that oh great and powerful Crowley could have been defeated!!!!!! By his own powerful magic of super-awesomeness!!!!!!

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:44 pm

If you don't know this already, there are a lot of other characters that don't have birthdates on the timeline. Sierra, Windy, Leknaat, Neclord, Hikusaak, and Flame Champion just to name a few. It is quite possible that Crowley and Mazus were born before they died with their duel. So, the time travel theory has merit, but just because they don't have a birth date before they died at the duel does not mean they were only born afterwards. This is just a bit of information I thought would help.

Hero Kev · Post by **Hero Kev** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:34 am

oh well ok i know different pple hav thier own theories and ideas...and mine isnt definitely goin to be true.....but ill still state my last point.actually its more of repeating but anyway its also a summary.

ok lets say we ignore the birthdate thing......reincarnation is only transferring of souls...but i think Crowley and Mazus most probably looked the same before they dueled.....and after they reincarnated they had just very nice age in which they could be like as if they had never dueled.

that is only a small and almost useless point actually....the only true reason im saying the time travel theory is becoz if im not wrong by right reincarnating shouldnt allow you to retain memories of the past....if thats the case reincarnating is definitely out cuz its too much of a coincidence that they are able to become rivals again......

so lets say im wrong on that or they had their own way of reincarnating....wouldnt they had full knowledge of their past life at birth?....and if thats the case Mazus would also be very pro but its seems like he is still below Crowley in terms of power during suiko 1 and 2 for some of you.

lol so thats all i have to say......if you all have anything to prove the reincarnating theory please comment...cuz its not the time travel that is definitely true....its i have my doubts on the reincarnating theory....

Fury · Post by **Fury** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:44 pm

I like the time travel hypothesis. I'd go with that.

On the power levels, it doesn't matter if Crowley was only using a fraction of his power during the Gate Rune Wars. His battle with Mazus wasn't fought during the Gate Rune Wars anyway.

If they destroyed each other, along with the land, then their power levels must have been near equal. BOTH of them died, not just Mazus.

Crowley might be your "pillar of awesomeness" or whatever you said, Apprentice, but Mazus is great in his own right. Not his fault he hangs out in the Tinto Mines.

Futagi · Post by **Futagi** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:05 am

At the very least, the time travel theory would make for a VERY interesting Suikoden game in the future...

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:05 pm

The only problem with the time travel theory is that we already have a character that travels through time at a whim. I would prefer that Crowley and Mazus just use their incredible wizardry to give themselves rebirth. Also, it is not necessary that reincarnation implies that you will not have the same memories of your past life...Godsend, anyone? Plus, we do not know what Crowley and Mazus looked like before their duel and I don't even think that really matters.

They could have magically transferred their souls, anchoring it to the living realm in order to be born again at a later time. The soul is the essence of their being and witheld their memories. Therefore, I don't disagree with the time travel theory and I'm not saying the reincarnation theory is the only suitable one, but I would prefer to do without the whole time travel thing as it would ruin Crowley and Mazus' prowess to me. Time travel just does not seem is impactful as them dying and being reborn.