Tanya "Silverberg"

JanusThePaladin · Post by **JanusThePaladin** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:28 pm

why dont you tell me when she succeeded then? Her strategies never worked in S2, and she never gave any strategies in S1 or 3, so tell me, how is she not a failure?

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:09 pm

Apple seems to never have any ideas...
Maybe she's learning how to win a war without any bloodshed....sounds familiar?

syun_ukiya · Post by **syun_ukiya** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:13 am

actually it is apple that shaped shu in the later part of the s2..

TheBoundlessDream · Post by **TheBoundlessDream** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:37 am

What do you mean by that?

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:45 am

She made Shu realize some of more human parts of strategy, such as humility. She may not be the best strategist, but she is the most human. Caesar seems to be the same way. The other strategists seem like robots, pumping out good strategies.

Hero Kev · Post by **Hero Kev** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:50 am

yup but i think stretegists that are more human are inferior and therefore becomes more of losing strategists most of the time.Its preciseely becoz they have lower intelligence than those smart guys thats why they are more human.......for in war planning its about thinking ahead one step in front of ur enemy and being ruthless, most of the times has nothing to do wiv human or not.Who gives a damn about how human u are when u are losing all the time.

Sure preventing bloodshed is good but sometimes sacrifices is nessesary to ensuere the victory.In war it is about being brutal and do watever is nessary to win.

Dark Stranger · Post by **Dark Stranger** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:16 pm

Its infair to say that Apple was less intelligent than Shu or Ceasar, she just was not as skilled. She was willing to show her humility and beg to Shu, this shows great leadership qualities. She was also involved in three wars in the suikoden universe and although Ceasar came up with the startegies i believe her character was potrayed as a mentor, a voice of experience, so in the end she proved invaluable. Her humanity brought the silverbergs to these wars so she was as much responsible for the successful outcomes as the strategists were.

Hero Kev · Post by **Hero Kev** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:05 am

she just was not as skilled

isnt it the same as not being as intelligent? in strategy skillfulness is how u plan ur strategies...n that depended on how smart u r....

She was willing to show her humility was the only thing that made her special n outstanding........it only shows that she isnt arogant n was willing to take defeat but it does not show n prove that she is smarter nor has leadership qualities cuz even though a leader must be able to bide his time n live in humiliation at the time it does not mean that having it means she is a leader....

She was also involved in three wars in the suikoden universe and although Ceasar came up with the startegies i believe her character was potrayed as a mentor, a voice of experience, so in the end she proved invaluable.

Caeser was i think inexperience and therefore if he could come up wiv strategies n win war without any any mentor it shows how incredibly genius he is....but thats not the case.....Apple is experience by then so she would be a good mentor to Caeser but that also does not mean she is smarter for if she is..she would BE able to take the main strategist post n not an inexperience rookie like Caeser why.......becoz she has no ability nor talent to do so......

Ultimately it still depends on the person's intellectual level n his talent to become a good strategist n apparently Apple doesnt have wat it takes....

Post by **patapi** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:47 am

About Apple, this is my personal take on her character.

In the original Suikoden, she was still a student of Mathiu. Nothing much to say here, but she must be a bright enough student to get enlisted as a co-leader of the Strategists' group over her fellow peers.

We finally saw the product of her time with Mathiu in Suikoden II. I'm quite sure that she at least had the aptitude to do as well as Shu, but she lacked something else; she didn't have that air of absolute confidence in her strategies. Humility is a valuable characteristic, but that somewhat got in the way of her role as a strategist. Throughout Suikoden II, she constantly looked up to Shu's "superior" tactics, which in return led to her not able to do much. (In fact, I dare say that she did worse than her normal self because of Shu's presence.)

When she returns in III, she is no longer in a position to be the lead strategist. If anything, she primarily travels alongside Caesar as his mentor, and let him do most of the work. It's not that she couldn't do it herself (yes or no, we will never know), but more importantly she rather watch Caesar demonstrate his abilities. After all, by that time, she is already a historian first, and a war strategist second.

Harmonian Bishop Sasarai · Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:03 am

JanusThePaladin wrote:I would expect Agnes to be the failure strategist, just like Apple, since they share the same star...

I wouldnt call the star which Apple and Agnes are a part of failures or inferiors because they give alot of moral support and help the main strategist. Just like how Apple got Shu to join the war and when Shu made Apple draw the card and the two stars always are around eachother. Plus i think the only difference between Shu and Apple is that Apple doesnt doesnt want to be heartless and use people like Shu(Shu does have a little more skill though but Apple does have more knowledge of the world IMO).

Moonbay · Post by **Moonbay** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:23 am

patapi wrote:About Apple, this is my personal take on her character.

In the original Suikoden, she was still a student of Mathiu. Nothing much to say here, but she must be a bright enough student to get enlisted as a co-leader of the Strategists' group over her fellow peers.

We finally saw the product of her time with Mathiu in Suikoden II. I'm quite sure that she at least had the aptitude to do as well as Shu, but she lacked something else; she didn't have that air of absolute confidence in her strategies. Humility is a valuable characteristic, but that somewhat got in the way of her role as a strategist. Throughout Suikoden II, she constantly looked up to Shu's "superior" tactics, which in return led to her not able to do much. (In fact, I dare say that she did worse than her normal self because of Shu's presence.)

When she returns in III, she is no longer in a position to be the lead strategist. If anything, she primarily travels alongside Caesar as his mentor, and let him do most of the work. It's not that she couldn't do it herself (yes or no, we will never know), but more importantly she rather watch Caesar demonstrate his abilities. After all, by that time, she is already a historian first, and a war strategist second.

Actually, I always felt that Apple was better at the snap decisions. Maybe she had problems thinking about all the possible scenarios like Shu, but when the chips were down--she could react correctly.

For example, in Suikoden II, when her plan to take Muse failed, she barely thought about her strategy before telling Hauser to take his troops through an armed territory because there would be no ambush waiting for him.

She's better under pressure, when the action's on, then trying to come up with all the different plans.

Jeane fan · Post by **Jeane fan** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:36 am

I think the difference between Shu and Apple was not that Shu was smarter, but he's more creative... and I guess, ruthless. See Apple goes by the book but she's not prepared if her plan fails, and does not anticipate the consequences. Some people aren't good at coming up with original ideas, yet they're good at implementing them. She may have been good at carrying out the preparations, dividing squad, etc... but tell her to make a plan and she comes up with one that's been around for years. I guess that's why you go to her to manage your war squads, as she's the one that handles that.

Shu on the other hand, not only able to use what he's learned, but was able to apply the theory to other areas, such as using it to make his business boom. This is also why he was expelled, as he uses what he learns in very inappropriate and deviously successful ways. He's good at coming up with plans and original strategies, as he's able to see the fulll picture and consequences. Other than that, he doesn't "cramp his style" with the nitty gritty, such as picking out soldiers, making preps etc... he's the leader and tells other people to do it (ie, Apple). This is shown in the scene before defending North Window, as he tells Freed to pick his soldiers, and the others to make the squads.

I think this is also why Apple let Ceaser do everything in S3, as she knows he's good at using the applied knowledge at other things. She's definately his mentor, as in the manga, she gets ticked off that Caeser keeps falling asleep during her lessons.

As for Tanya, doesn't she make a few requests in Suikoden Tactics where you have to get her some things?

Occam Arkitect · Post by **Occam Arkitect** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:21 am

Apple pwned this topic.

Yeah, Tanya was still being a "historian" in rhapsodia days, and lets Kyril do the dirty work for her. But still, later on she could have pursued a strate-career.

son_michael · Post by **son_michael** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:52 am

Tanya makes kyrill dig up some stuff for her in quests

Chris_Lightfellow · Post by **Chris_Lightfellow** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:24 am

Hero Kev wrote:Ultimately it still depends on the person's intellectual level n his talent to become a good strategist n apparently Apple doesnt have wat it takes....

Not necessarily. It also takes a good amount of creativity to plan a good strategy. I think that Apple is very intelligent, she's just not that creative when it comes to planning the strategy.

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Tanya "Silverberg"

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