The Eightfold Rune

Chibi-Bob · Post by **Chibi-Bob** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:09 am

Time for Yuber and Pesmerga Thread #255!

This hypothesis didn't fit into any other currently open thread, and I think it might just be a plausible theory as to the existance and eternal struggle of the two black knights.

Firstly, Yuber has a True Rune, the Eightfold Rune.
The gods at Konami gave us this information some time ago.

Now, the Eightfold Rune in my opinion may represent the Noble Eightfold Path, a theory presented by Siddhartha Gautama, that by realizing a certain eight goals in one's life (and thus percieving life in an entirely different way than, for example, we all see it right now), one can end all suffering in one's universe.

Does this sound like Yuber?

Nuh-uh.
That's what I thought too.

Actually, it sounds more like Pesmerga.

Which leads to my hypothesis.

Yuber is not the nicest guy in the world. I think we're all in agreement on that point. He manipulated his rune (whether that was the True Rune that summoned the monster armies in Suikoden I or another rune of his, I'm not sure if that's been established) to potentially wipe out Tir McDohl's entire force near the end of the Toran War. He has a teleportation ability (once again, which rune gave him this power is unclear), which he abused when Windy raided Ted's village three hundred years ago. And let's face it -- he's really freakin' strong!

I doubt the peacefully-minded Buddhists intended the Noble Eightfold Path to be used as a key to absolute power.

Now, it has been stated that True Runes have the ability to choose their wielders; the Night Rune embedded into the Star Dragon Sword comes to mind. So I think we can assume that the True Runes have some degree of sentient behavior (i.e., they have intelligence).

If that's the case, and the Eightfold Rune, a rune promoting balance and order and an end to all suffering, was held by a man who wished to use the power of a True Rune to create chaos throughout the universe, couldn't the Eightfold Rune reject its current owner and seek a new one?

Actually, that really hasn't happened yet in any Suikoden thus far, and besides, Yuber still wouldn't have the Eightfold Rune by now when Konami's stated he has it, right?

Finally, here's my hypothesis on the origin of the eternal struggle between Yuber and Pesmerga -- the semi-sentient Eightfold Rune saw its power to bring Darma (or Order, if you wish to call it that) to the world was instead being twisted by Yuber's innate Chaos, and thus formed from its inherent power a second Yuber of sorts -- the yang to Yuber's yin -- a "shadow" with the blessing of the Noble Eightfold Path, to eliminate the Chaos that corrupted its owner.

Think about it. Yuber and Pesmerga appear nearly identical throughout Suikoden I and II (we can't compare III because Pesmerga was noticeably absent) -- except, wherever Yuber displays a "color" of sorts (i.e. his hair color), Pesmerga is completely void of color. The chaotic and unpredictable Yuber always seeks conflict wherever blood can be spilled, while the Dharmic Pesmerga always follows a step behind, seeking to eliminate the Chaos and regain the Eightfold Rune for its true purpose. (Note that Yuber is never trying to find Pesmerga -- he's probably trying to avoid him at all costs). And along the topic of Pesmerga being a "shadow," think about this -- as the shadow always follows behind his host, so too does Pesmerga always follow behind Yuber.

And this is an interesting little tidbit -- Yuber always appears decrepit and, well, kinda old, while Pesmerga appears younger and more alive -- perhaps the Yuber before the Chaos overcame him? A shadow of the happy li'l cute Yuber that once was, before he started lookin' like a zombie with his neck stretched out and ugly and wrinkly? (Suikoden II's artwork has traumatized me, I admit it. ;_;)

This "final battle" at the end of the series . . .

If Yuber won by slaying the Eightfold Rune's incarnate paladin Pesmerga, the power of the Eightfold Rune would be extinguished, and a True Rune would be eliminated. Not only is it hard to imagine the impact that the destruction of one of the twenty-seven shards created when the world was born would have on the planet as we see it... If the Rune, the physical representation of Dharma itself, was destroyed, Order as we know it would cease to exist, and the world would enter a perpetual state of entropy.

Chaos cannot exist without Order. It's a fundamental truth. Without Order, what could Chaos possibly screw with? Nothing. Everything would cease to exist.

If Pesmerga won by slaying Yuber, the force of Dharma conquering the force of Chaos, then Order would have triumphed. A True Rune cannot exist without a host, whether a sword or a living being; thus, by Pesmerga slaying Yuber, Pesmerga himself would disappear from existance, being just Yuber's shadow brought forth by the Eightfold Rune and unable to bear any worldly weight anyway (since he's this other-wordly... hot... thing... dude. yeah.). The Eightfold Rune's corruption by Yuber would end, and Order would engulf the entire world. Everything would remain static, and an anti-entropy of sorts would take place, where all would become one.

Order cannot exist without Chaos. Without Chaos, what would Order have to reform? Nothing. A dummied down theory of this is the yin-yang balance. Without yin (the female), the yang (the male) couldn't possibly reproduce and would cease to exist. Same goes for the other way around.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm going to bed now. :D I <3 comments~!

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:20 am

Now, the Eightfold Rune in my opinion may represent the Noble Eightfold Path, a theory presented by Siddhartha Gautama, that by realizing a certain eight goals in one's life (and thus percieving life in an entirely different way than, for example, we all see it right now), one can end all suffering in one's universe.

Does this sound like Yuber?

Nuh-uh.
That's what I thought too.

Actually, it sounds more like Pesmerga.

We can't assume that Pesmerga is "Noble" and Yuber isn't. The fact is that we know very little about the both of them. Yuber craves chaos and destruction, but Pesmerga is stalking this being in hopes of doing bodily harm. That is not exactly what I would call noble. Pesmerga also seems to lack any emotion and is only driven by one singulary desire which is to mangle Yuber.

Pesmerga does not seem to give an ounce of care to what is going on in the universe or the Suikoden world. Pesmerga only seeks Yuber and that's Pesmerga's one goal. Once again, that to me seems less than noble and actually causes me to worry about Pesmerga as the seemingly "good" being.

If that's the case, and the Eightfold Rune, a rune promoting balance and order and an end to all suffering, was held by a man who wished to use the power of a True Rune to create chaos throughout the universe, couldn't the Eightfold Rune reject its current owner and seek a new one?

If this was the case, then Yuber would never have been allowed to bear the Eightfold Rune in the first place. True Runes will not allign themselves with a bearer that cannot complete their goals and contradicts their will. Yuber is bearing the Eightfold Rune for a reason and as far as we have seen, this particular True Rune likely does not bear noble powers. Yuber uses the Eight-Devil Rune, a lesser form of the Eightfold Rune, in Suikoden 3 and it's kind of obvious that that particular True Rune has 'devilish' abilities..excuse the play on words.

Think about it. Yuber and Pesmerga appear nearly identical throughout Suikoden I and II (we can't compare III because Pesmerga was noticeably absent) -- except, wherever Yuber displays a "color" of sorts (i.e. his hair color), Pesmerga is completely void of color. The chaotic and unpredictable Yuber always seeks conflict wherever blood can be spilled, while the Dharmic Pesmerga always follows a step behind, seeking to eliminate the Chaos and regain the Eightfold Rune for its true purpose. (Note that Yuber is never trying to find Pesmerga -- he's probably trying to avoid him at all costs). And along the topic of Pesmerga being a "shadow," think about this -- as the shadow always follows behind his host, so too does Pesmerga always follow behind Yuber.

Again, it's too early to say whether Yuber's goals are 'evil' and Pesmerga's goals are 'good'. Yuber may, in fact, be moving the world to a more benevolent era where mortal beings have the ability of free will unobstructed by the desires of the True Runes. Notice, Yuber tries to inflict Chaos on the world by harming True Rune bearers who seem to desire Order. Order is stagnation, an existence where nothing grows or changes. Yuber could be seeking a way in order to let the world evolve into a higher state of being by allowing Chaos to inhabit existence.

Vice-Versa, Pesmerga could be hindering the world's growth and evolution by seeking to destroy Pesmerga and inflict Order. Pesmerga could necessarily be the unmerciless being harming the world's hope for change. We all were given a glimpse of what the world would be like if Order prevails through Luc's eyes in Suikoden 3. Could we necessarily call Pesmerga 'good' for trying to halt the progress of the harbringer of Chaos which Yuber seems to be?

Note, I'm not saying that any idea is wrong, but it might be a little too early to be calling sides. Pesmerga is clearly an unnoble being constantly stalking death, Yuber means death, and Pesmerga being the shadow..he never sleeps, eats, and makes no sound...alludes to corruption. The Shadow alludes to dark swallowing the light. Being a shadow is not necessarily a 'good' thing.

All, and all, you make a good stance, but so far there are too many variables to factor.

xXSqualleoNXx · Post by **xXSqualleoNXx** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:05 pm

Or Perhaps neither of them are good. We know Yuber doesn't care about "mortals".
"You aren't Human !"
"What am I then? Actually, I'm glad I'm not as fragile and weak as humans are."
He also shows how he doesn't care one bit about them. If was killing to help people he wouldn't enjoy killing EVERYONE he can (Of course, he seems to be bound by some rules we have yet to clarifiy).

We have yet to see an opposite to Yuber as well. Pesmerga is arguably it's opposite but as said that is debatable since Pesmerga doesn't seek the good of the world ,he just seeks Yuber. Actually, I want an explanation of why Pesmerga wants to destroy Yuber. In my honest oppinion, I like Yuber more.

Bright shield · Post by **Bright shield** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:42 pm

That theory is completly possible except. The runes are sentient and choose there user. I would think since you believe the 8 fold rune is used for good that it would seek out such a good person. If someone who believed chaos was good that it would'nt attach it self to them. You should alter your theory to that aspect. Maybe Yuber changed, Maybe runes make Mistakes, Maybe the truth is a bit different. Maybe the creators of suikoden have no fking idea what to do with the two.

Chibi-Bob · Post by **Chibi-Bob** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:12 pm

Again, it's too early to say whether Yuber's goals are 'evil' and Pesmerga's goals are 'good'. Yuber may, in fact, be moving the world to a more benevolent era where mortal beings have the ability of free will unobstructed by the desires of the True Runes. Notice, Yuber tries to inflict Chaos on the world by harming True Rune bearers who seem to desire Order. Order is stagnation, an existence where nothing grows or changes. Yuber could be seeking a way in order to let the world evolve into a higher state of being by allowing Chaos to inhabit existence.

Vice-Versa, Pesmerga could be hindering the world's growth and evolution by seeking to destroy Pesmerga and inflict Order. Pesmerga could necessarily be the unmerciless being harming the world's hope for change. We all were given a glimpse of what the world would be like if Order prevails through Luc's eyes in Suikoden 3. Could we necessarily call Pesmerga 'good' for trying to halt the progress of the harbringer of Chaos which Yuber seems to be?

Wow, I couldn't agree more with your hypothesis after reading this. I agree, perhaps it is too early to draw a conclusion about the two men. Maybe they're both fighting for their own vision of "justice," or maybe Yuber just enjoys beating the smack out of True Rune bearers. I haven't been able to play/afford Suikoden III yet, so I have yet to see Luc's visions or how Yuber continues to stalk the True Runes -- I just believed from what I've seen that his bloodlust got the better of him. Which it probably has.

Oh yeah, another thing. The Eightfold Path is Noble. Pesmerga is not noble.

He's just hot. :D

And although it is too early to really form a conclusive theory on Yuber and Pesmerga's origins, who knows? Someone somewhere may have just hit the $64 question on the head! Besides, when we do find out, the only thing left we'll really have to speculate on is whether Neclord was driven crazy by an ingrown toenail or just drank the Ladies' Man's Chianti.

Squall, that's a good point -- we don't really know if Pesmerga and Yuber represent good and evil, respectively, or what. It's just the fact that the Noble Eightfold Path and the Eightfold Rune sounded too similar in name for me to overlook. I still wholeheartedly believe, however, that Yuber brings Chaos to the world -- perhaps it was even intended for Chaos to be a beneficial force. We just don't know yet. Naturally, Order would follow Chaos, but maybe little Pesmerga just wants the $5 that little Yuber borrowed for lunch money three hundred years ago back. o.O

Bright shield -- yep, the True Runes are sentient. Maybe not all of them are as obnoxious as the Night Rune, but... They still have some sort of ego. In my mind I just keep picturing a happy little Yuber with a happy little Eightfold Rune, and then Yuber screwing up somehow and becoming the prune danish he is today. The Eightfold Rune is most likely not representative of the Noble Eightfold Path, but... Like I said before, the similarity is just kinda nagging at me. Or, maybe Chaos is the good thing here. Maybe Chaos, a world without True Runes like demon eye said, is just what the doctor ordered.

Speculation is a good thing -- only when people accept the truth when the truth is revealed. We'll just have to wait and see -- and pray that the Suikoden writer leaving the company won't turn all this upside down. :/

Mathiu Silverberg · Post by **Mathiu Silverberg** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:02 am

First, I'd like to say, Yuber always seems happiest when he's decimating the lives of any living creature at what seems to be any points in time. So, that could really be his eight paths in life. I can serious picture a happy little Yuber and his happy little True Rune in a field of corpses, blood-rusted weapons, and more corpses. Then he'd go kill more.

And yes, Chaos is a needed part of any world. It's what makes people unique and themselves. No one person has EVERY SINGLE thing in common, down to the protein in their eye lashes. Absolute order, to any philisophical thinking, is absolute doom. Society never could grow without the want to be different.

I can garauntee you, any aristilian philosopher will agree with me about chaos being a needed factor in any existence.

Fun theory, Chibi-Bob. Very fun! =D

True Wind Bearer · Post by **True Wind Bearer** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:07 am

lol
I like this thread.
But anyways...I think that Yuber's (and maybe Pesmerga's aswel) True Rune represents Chaos.
I also think that Pesmerga has half.
Yuber and Pesmerga may be made of nothingness, from the World of Emptiness.
But what I can't quite explain is why Yuber wants to destroy other True Runes, perhaps he just wants his rune to be the only True Rune left in the world? But why would he want that...?

xXSqualleoNXx · Post by **xXSqualleoNXx** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:11 am

He seems to despise True Runes. Until we know his backstory and motivations (aside from the "Me want Chaos !" schtick) we can tell for certain why that is.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:53 pm

Actually, Yuber only hates the Bright Shield Rune. SARS wrote the entries at both Suikosource and Suikox, and since he only has power over Suikox he changed the entry at Suikox to say that Yuber only hates the Bright Shield Rune.

True Wind Bearer · Post by **True Wind Bearer** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:02 pm

Jowy Atreides wrote:Actually, Yuber only hates the Bright Shield Rune.

Now that's odd...is it just because he is on Highland's side and despises the opposing side? Or is there history behind it?

Vincent of Scarlet Moon · Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:04 pm

Well, if the Bright Shield Rune represents Order and Yuber loves Chaos... well, figure it out.

The Flame Champion · Post by **The Flame Champion** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:34 pm

As long as Yuber keeps on coming back im happy, thats one of the great things about him.

True Wind Bearer · Post by **True Wind Bearer** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:01 pm

Yuber just goes anywhere to cause Chaos...and more Chaos...then a little more...

Post by **Vextor** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:39 am

Bright Shield Rune represents chaos, not order. Luc says in Suikoden 3 that Shield is alonged with chaos, and sword with order. This is also true with most symbolic representations of "sword" in history, such as "Justice" wielding a sword and scales. "Law" has been defined in some political texts as the "sword of the sovereign," etc. I have no idea how shield can represent chaos, though.

Id · Post by Id » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:23 pm

mabye by "stopping" the "swords" of justice.