Leknaat

Hypotheses for, and analyses of, the various Suikoden characters.
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TrueEightfold
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Post by TrueEightfold »

Rezard wrote: I personally don't like that, it has too much assumptions.
Who broke the rune? Why? Wouldn't they have larger chances if the rune was given to just one of them?
How is it possible to manipulate a true rune like this? We´ve never seen anything like this with any other rune.
If they are two equal pieces of a broken rune, why the different names (back and front) ? It seems like the RoB.

Well thats not entirely true. You do see a True Rune manipulate another. Luc's True Wind Rune takes over and siezes all the other True Elemental Runes in SIII. Also the breakdown of Luc's overall plan. Obviously, you can tell that True Runes hold power over other True Runes. Maybe a TR's power comes from how powerful the will is of its user. Leknaat states multiple times how a person's "will" comes into effect in destiny.

As far as the splitting of the rune, I remember reading the same thing in a Suikoden Novel once of how Windy and Leknaat split the rune. I cannot cite sorces however so I'm sorry. Possibly the Leader of the Gate Rune Clan possesed a True Rune and split it for them

But in the end, I have a feeling the entire suikoverse is going to boil down to the Sindar. They seem to be the only mystery that is never revealed. Regardless of how many ruins are found, they never seem to advance any signficant information othen then that the Sindar have been around for a long time (i.e. the explosion of the Armes Kingdom Sun Rune), that they had technology that surpassed the current level (the fact that the castle in V never had algea even though it was drowned in water for a unspecified number of years, and that they had great control over the True Runes. Pehaps the final boss will be the Leader of the Sindar or his True Rune re-incarnated.

Oh and people, this is a "theories" board. Don't bother pointing out other peoples theories as stupid, the rest of us will just discount them.
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The Prophet
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Post by The Prophet »

Well thats not entirely true. You do see a True Rune manipulate another. Luc's True Wind Rune takes over and siezes all the other True Elemental Runes in SIII. Also the breakdown of Luc's overall plan. Obviously, you can tell that True Runes hold power over other True Runes. Maybe a TR's power comes from how powerful the will is of its user. Leknaat states multiple times how a person's "will" comes into effect in destiny.
Actually, the True Wind Rune does not take over and seize the power of the other Elemental True Runes. Luc uses a Sindarian technique to capture and allow himself the ability to use the power of other True Runes without bearing them himself. This is also why Sera can use them, as well.

As for how they split the Gate Rune, it is never fully explained.
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tactless
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Post by tactless »

about leknat being a boss...if konami wants to do that,they´ll have to do it in the last suikoden.right??
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TrueEightfold
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Post by TrueEightfold »

Ok just because its a Sindarian technique does not mean it isn't the power of the True Rune. Remember, the Sindar are VERY adept in the knowledge and usage of True Runes. The technique may have simply been the way to tap into a True Runes power and take over another Rune.
Whenever Luc attempts to seize a TR in SIII, his True Wind Rune symbol always appears overhead. Logic would dictate that he is using his Rune's power.

And no, Konami can do whatever they want. If it were to happen, which I don't think it will, I would bet it would happen at the end though.
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Post by Wicked_Rune_Bearer »

Leknaat states multiple times how a person's "will" comes into effect in destiny.
yeah, that's kinda what makes suikoden, every suikoden has multiple endings depending oh how many characters the hero befriended. or lets say how much "will" he had toward getting help for the reveloution. in s1 the hero's will in the end depends of if gremio is revived, in s2 it decides if it'll just be riou or riou namani and jowy, in s3 the trinity system really messed things up when it came to this factor so i'll pass it up, s4, lazlo either lives or has to be pushed into the ocean dead in a box. s5 has a couple different endings. him leaving with georg, him helping rebuild falena or him and lyon leaving with georg, not sure if s5 is completly correct but you get the point. leknaat stating that will comes into effect in destiny should be thought of more then just something that is said and forgotten, it's something that when said should be thought about everyday you play the game, or if you want to be realistic take it to heart. you know that if you give it your all in the end the best results. if you have a class and your "will" to try hard in that class isn't strong enough then you'll fail, if your "will" to give it your all at work isn't strong enough then you might not move up in the ladders, you might not get a raise, you might even get fired, both of these could be critical to your destiny, it might determine you saving your best friend or you being pushed off in a box in the ocean, ok maybe not being pushed off in a box but you get the point.
A rpg-suikoden site that lets you choose your character and basically play suikoden on your computer as if it was on your ps console
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Post by Leebot »

TrueEightfold wrote:Ok just because its a Sindarian technique does not mean it isn't the power of the True Rune. Remember, the Sindar are VERY adept in the knowledge and usage of True Runes. The technique may have simply been the way to tap into a True Runes power and take over another Rune.
Whenever Luc attempts to seize a TR in SIII, his True Wind Rune symbol always appears overhead. Logic would dictate that he is using his Rune's power.

And no, Konami can do whatever they want. If it were to happen, which I don't think it will, I would bet it would happen at the end though.
Also remember the scene where he steals Geddoe's rune. At first, he's unable to overpower him as they're both using one True rune, and Geddoe with True Lightning is about as awesome as Luc with True Wind. But then, Luc takes out the stolen True Earth rune and using the two of them, he manages to overpower Geddoe. It's quite clear he's using the power of the runes to do the stealing.
The Prophet
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Post by The Prophet »

Also remember the scene where he steals Geddoe's rune. At first, he's unable to overpower him as they're both using one True rune, and Geddoe with True Lightning is about as awesome as Luc with True Wind. But then, Luc takes out the stolen True Earth rune and using the two of them, he manages to overpower Geddoe. It's quite clear he's using the power of the runes to do the stealing.
Utilizing the power of the True Rune makes the current bearer of the True Rune Luc wished to steal weak so that he could use those Sindarin containers to steal the True Rune from the bearer. Without the containers Luc could not have stolen the True Runes, so by saying the true Rune is used to to steal the other True Runes is not correct, but it is true that they were involved.
TrueEightfold
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Post by TrueEightfold »

However, it is VERY safe to assume that you need to posseses a True Rune (or other rune of great power such as Bright Shield, Black Sword, etc) to invoke this Sindarian technique. One could speculate that the containers have nothing to do with it. I could go on a whim and guess that if he did remove the rune, it would just return to Geddoe after a short period of time, or choose a new owner.

That is an odd statement. "....so that he could use those Sindarian containers to steal the True Rune from its bearer"

How often do you hear of a container stealing something? Like I said above, a container is what you put something that is stolen in. So I was correct in that the True Rune, albeit using a Sindar Technique, is what steals another True Rune, and the containers are what allow him to retain said rune.
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The Prophet
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Post by The Prophet »

However, it is VERY safe to assume that you need to posseses a True Rune (or other rune of great power such as Bright Shield, Black Sword, etc) to invoke this Sindarian technique. One could speculate that the containers have nothing to do with it. I could go on a whim and guess that if he did remove the rune, it would just return to Geddoe after a short period of time, or choose a new owner.
Well, I don't know if it would be safe to assume that. It is clear that Hikusaak gained the technique to hold onto True Runes that he could not bear himself, as well as be able to use their powers. The containers have everything to do with it since only one person knows how to hold more than one True Rune at a time. Without the containers Luc would have had no way of obtaining the other True Elemental Runes. Certainly, if Luc would have simply murdered Sasarai or Geddoe without those containers he would have had no way of obtaining those True Runes because they would have simply floated away or buried themselves.

It is a video game and you are trying to make a rational statement about a container?

Anyway, the True Rune did not steal the other True Rune. Fact, Luc cannot bear more than one True Rune at a time. So, he used the Sindarin technique involving the container to forcibly remove the True Runes from the other bearers and store them. Now, whether the container stripped the True Rune from them or not, we cannot be sure as we never see Luc saying a chant or anything, but the one thing we can be certain of is that the True Wind Rune did not "steal" the True Runes from the other bearers. If that was the case, then why didn't Luc steal the True Earth Rune without the containers?

So, like I stated that using a True Rune to beat the other bearer senseless makes it easier to use the Sindarian Technique to steal the True Rune, but you are not correct in saying that the True Rune is what stole the other True Runes if that is what you were implying. The Sindar technique is what steals the True Rune and we don't know for sure if the containers are not a part of what steals the True Runes and contains it. You are seemingly implying that a container cannot steal something, but this is a fantasy world where beavers talk and elves exist. A container can and certainly appears to do a lot of various things. But, it "may" simply be for storage.
TrueEightfold
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Post by TrueEightfold »

Just because its fanatasy, a lion isn't a duck, and a beaver isn't a person. They have thrown in unrealistic things, but they have not changed things that already exist. So my rationalization about the conatiner being...well...a container, is correct.

And as I stated, you are correct, he cannot bare more then one True Rune. However, he can use the True Rune to call out and strip the current barer of it. What would happen outside of the host's body without the containers is not known, but it is much more likely that the Sindarian Technique (Sindar using True Rune Magic adeptly) used the power of a True Rune to draw out another Rune, and then seal it within these cotainers.
but the one thing we can be certain of is that the True Wind Rune did not "steal" the True Runes from the other bearers. If that was the case, then why didn't Luc steal the True Earth Rune without the containers?
Again, look to my previous post. You have no proof or even logical sense to your statement. My idea of a True Rune drawing out another is much more plausible. He could have stollen Sassari's True Earth Rune without the containers, but the Rune would then be in limbo, and most likely return to Sassari. The containers acted as a simple vessel to withhold said rune.
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son_michael
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Post by son_michael »

actually I agree with TrueEightfold on this matter...


its true Luc had to use a Sindar technique ....but its also true that luc needed the power of 2 true runes in order to do it. Remember in order to start stealing runes Luc needed Sasarai's True Earth Rune. Luc was confident he could get it because of sasarai's lack of experience but bearers like Geddoe and Jimba had ALOT of experience with there true runes and in order to get there True runes he needed 2 True runes of his own.

I think its safe to say that the actual Sindarian technique requires a True rune because to me it looks like the Sindarian technique Luc uses to steal Geddoe and Jimba's True runes... require 2 True runes and the container in order to force the true rune from its master....So bassically Luc had to equip the container with another True rune in order to remove True runes from there powerful bearers....but Luc took Sasarai's rune without having to use a Sindar technique, because Sasarai was not as powerful and experienced with his True rune
The Prophet
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Post by The Prophet »

It doesn't require a True Rune. Luc had to overpower the bearers to allow him to be able to strip their powers. It is not like the bearer is going to simply sit there and let him use a Sindarin technique to take their True Rune. He needed to exhaust them first and then use the technique.

Actually, we don't see how Luc takes Sasarai's True Earth Rune. We see Sasarai crumpled over in pain and the next thing we know his True Earth Rune is in a container if I recall correctly.
Just because its fanatasy, a lion isn't a duck, and a beaver isn't a person. They have thrown in unrealistic things, but they have not changed things that already exist. So my rationalization about the conatiner being...well...a container, is correct.
You are missing the point of that statement. Those containers are not simply used for storage. You are trying to limit what the containers can do simply by definitinion of what we would call a container, but this is not evident in the game. As we saw in the game, the container can do much more than store things. It composed the materials of what Sasarai and Luc were made out of and it allows a person to use the powers of a True Rune without bearing it as well as double as a function of a container. In essence, it is a vessel much like Sasarai and Luc with much more capability than...well..uh..a container. So, your rationalization is only partly correct.

Why would Hikusaak go through the process of obtaining those containers and that technique if he could simply walk up to another True Rune bearer and strip their powers with his own True Rune? He already knew how to store True Runes in living vessels, why the need for that Sindarin technique and those containers if he could create living storage facilities? Obviously, the containers served more purpose than simply storage. Maybe, just maybe, they were necessary to obtain the True Runes he could not bear himself.
Again, look to my previous post. You have no proof or even logical sense to your statement. My idea of a True Rune drawing out another is much more plausible. He could have stollen Sassari's True Earth Rune without the containers, but the Rune would then be in limbo, and most likely return to Sassari. The containers acted as a simple vessel to withhold said rune.
What are you talking about "sense" for? How does your idea of a True Rune calling out another one make more "sense"? And it is simply not more plausible at all. First of all, True Runes have been shown to have their own agendas and a craving to choose their own bearer to achieve their individual desires. Now, try to think about this for a second, why would another True Rune listen to another and become subservient to it when they are all equal in power (which has nothing to do with the bearer)? Why would a being of equal power allow itself to be taken and controlled by another being without some other added outside influence? All logical evidence points to Luc weakening his opponents first, which we see on numerous occassions, and then him calling on the vessel which subdues the opponent, strips the bearer of his True Rune and then stores it for safe keeping (yes, the container does have a storage function which I have not denied).

Furthermore, there is evidence of even special runes protecting its bearer from the power of a True Rune. Example, the Bright Shield Rune protecting Riou from the power of the Blue Moon Rune while he was nearly unconscious and had half the power of the Blue Moon Rune. Another example, the Night Rune nullifying the powers of the Blue Moon Rune so Viktor could fight evenly against Neclord. Why not simply use your True Rune to strip the other rune from the bearer, kill the bearer and not even be bothered with them anymore?

If it is as you say, here is the scenario, Luc simply strips the True Rune, the bearer is stunned which we see occurs after the True Rune is stripped, he kills them and even without the container, if there is no living bearer to come back to then the True Rune will simply fly off, bury itself, or go onto the next bearer, so there is no threat of retaliation. Yes, we know Luc had other agendas aside from simply killing off the other bearers, but again, based on the evidence from past games we can see that simply using a True Rune to strip another True Rune is not possible (see Windy in Suikoden 1).

Why wouldn't Yuber, Neclord and Windy combine their powers to take the Soul Eater if it were possible for True Runes to strip a True Rune from a bearer? I mean, that is essentially what you are saying Luc did right? Windy knew how to bear two True Runes and she was much more knowledgeable than Luc and more powerful than Ted and Tir and had an opportunity (Seek Valley) to take it.

It just does not make any logical sense, as you say, to argue based on the evidence shown in previous games to show that one True Rune is able to be used to strip a True Rune from another bearer without something else involved. As we witnessed in Suikoden 3, the Sindarin technique and the containers are pivotal for the purpose of stripping a True Rune and not the power of the True Rune itself. Luc using his True Rune and the other true Runes just allowed fo rhim to weaken his opponent to the point where they could not resist the power of the Sindarin Technique, which is the container by the way.
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son_michael
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Post by son_michael »

Im preety sure Luc takes Sasarai's True Earth Rune without any Sindarian Techniques.{thats how I remember it} However everything else you said makes perfect sense prophet{as usual}
TrueEightfold
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Post by TrueEightfold »

Prophet, I have a feeling we are both right. I'm sure if we could get Konami too, they would be able to pick up apart out debate and show us how each of us were right.

I don't mean this to concede into your points, more that we seem to be going back and forth about similar things. I re-read some of our posts, and if you put both of our ideas together, we actually have quite a strucutally sound method of how the Sindarian Technique works.

I.E.
we can see that simply using a True Rune to strip another True Rune is not possible (see Windy in Suikoden 1)
That being my idea, added with your idea of the necessity of the Sindarian Containers being there, that sounds stable.[/quote]
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The Prophet
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Post by The Prophet »

I definitely agree with that. I think our main disagreement lies in which is most important as to how the True Rune is stripped. I believe that you think the most important component is the True Rune, where I believe the container using the Sindar Technique is what actually strips the True Rune.

We will definitely have to wait and see since Konami has not actually sent out any information in regards to this.
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