Leknaat-The unseeing eye that sees all

Hypotheses for, and analyses of, the various Suikoden characters.
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lucreborn
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Post by lucreborn »

flame_champ wrote:I think Windy is still alive.Leeknat would probably know if Windy is dead and would have the true gate rune. It might work like the black sword rune and the bright shield rune, if one bearer dies, the half goes to the one that still alive. But I know that the bright shield rune and the black sword rune are not really rune halves, so halves might act different and not come to each other...
This is so pointless I'm contradicting myself.Xb


Well i kinda agree with that i definitly think windy is still alive. If she is it would make a pretty weird story in upcoming suikodens. But maybe they wont even mention she is alive and just let it go. Even though it would be crazy to do that. But if lekket does only have one half of the true rune then windy has to be alive right?????
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Black Fang
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Post by Black Fang »

Well i kinda agree with that i definitly think windy is still alive. If she is it would make a pretty weird story in upcoming suikodens. But maybe they wont even mention she is alive and just let it go. Even though it would be crazy to do that. But if lekket does only have one half of the true rune then windy has to be alive right?????
Quick answer is no. There has been no evidence thus far that the gate rune unites or that Leknaat can sense the presence of her sister or the other half of the gate rune. It does make for some good plot opportunities if she is alive.

As for the deamon eye comment.....well, I like the logic behind your comments but what you seem to forget is that the Suikoden universe is only BASED on that of this world but is fictionalised in many ways. Despite the notion that fate and balance intertwine in the human realm (which even here I kind of object to), all evidence thus far from every suiko resource seems to point to the words that SARS wrote.

You seem to write "I believe" A LOT, which is ok in some ways and not in others. It shows that most of it is based on your ideas and wishes, and as logical as they seem in this world, they take on a different meaning in the Suikoverse as you called it. I think you have a good sense of what is what in life, but with a lack of Suiko knowledge I wouldn't contradict SARS (the Suikoden info guru), trust me on this one, I've been there heh.

Thus far it is unknown what purpose Leknaat truly has with faith. We know she is the keeper of fate, and that she sees GLIMPSES of that which is yet to happen, but even she admits that the future is foggy to her (or something along those lines), so to argue what she does is kind of pointless unless we truly have solid grounds for good arguments, as Konami could just turn the plot around on us and it'll bite you right on the ass.

Props up to you on good logic though.
Tanx to Star of Destiny for making my av!!! 8^p
demon eye
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Post by demon eye »

I have no doubt that SARSadmin knows his stuff and I am in no way contradicting the great SARSadmin, I just have a difference in opinion which is my right. I say "I believe" a lot for the sheer purpose to show that it's all speculation. In no way did I suggest my statements to be fact. As for the statement that things follow differently in the Suikoden World as compared to reality, well, yes that is quite obvious, but the point I was making is that we can make simple logical inferrences to the events portrayed in this game by accessing what goes on reality. Eventhough, it is very possible that the creators of Suikoden could have neglected reality totally and created Suikoden based off of totally new principles of science, but I find it hard to build a work of art without a firm canvass, meaning they have to have a sound base that actually works in order to even compose a work of fiction. As for fate and balance, it is a simple matter of opinion. I believe that there are various patterns and differing means to accomplish what would be termed as "fate". SARSadmin believes that "fate" leans towards order, I believe that events that correspond to "fate" are what should naturally occur in any sense of the word, meaning, I suggest that "fate" has nothing to do with order or chaos. But, on the other hand,it is canon that Leknaat is the Keeper of Balance. Therefore, when SARSadmin states that Leknaat works in order to balance chaos and order, I totally agree, but I dispute with him where he says that "fate" only works for order. I suggest that "fate" works for balance as well and that they both are intertwined in the Suikoden World. It's not a contradiction, just a difference of opinion. And I can argue about what she does no matter if it's pointless or not, doesn't make a difference because as you say Konami could switch the story on my ass. Also, who's to say Leknaat doesn't have an objective to push the world to a certain balance which she sees as fit? We can't know, right? So, that's why this is speculation. Don't take things so literal. An idea is an idea. You have the right to try to prove me wrong and I have the right to argue my point. I just want to introduce a new way of thinking and I also don't see where evidence points to what SARSadmin states. He makes a good point about balance, but he fails to make a convincing argument on how fate and balance can't intertwine. I will dispute with anyone if there's is room for an argument and trust me when I say I have nothing but respect for SARSadmin and anyone who supports Suikoden. He has given a lot back to us all so I would never contradict him, but he deserves the respect to be argued against at times, as well. lol. No one wants everyone to fear them. My way of showing him respect is to test his knowledge. Trust me, I'm not arguing with you or him and I respect both of your thoughts, but until you, he or anyone proves me wrong, then I'll continue with the beliefs I have stated.
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Post by Vextor »

It's not an issue about perspective, it's quite clear cut.

Suikoden 3 provided the information that the world is fated to become diminated by order (Dharma). That is the primary reason why Luc launched his campaign to destroy his True Rune so that he can change the fate of the world.

The world ending up saturated with dharma is the default consequance if fate flows as it goes. I don't see how the fate in the Suikoden world is gearted towards balance if the actual game states otherwise.
demon eye wrote:I will dispute with anyone if there's is room for an argument and trust me when I say I have nothing but respect for SARSadmin and anyone who supports Suikoden. He has given a lot back to us all so I would never contradict him, but he deserves the respect to be argued against at times, as well. lol. No one wants everyone to fear them. My way of showing him respect is to test his knowledge.
Dude, chill the heck down. I'm just a human being who happens to like Suikoden. All this respect stuff gives me the creeps.
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Post by Harukaze »

To be fair it is natural to show respect to someone who could be considered a foremost expert on the subject. On the other hand, SARS and I often have disagreed on points and I will quite happily disagree with him until someone points out an official source. More often than not it's SARS himself, since he simply has more sources than I do:p The victor is the one who has the most toys, after all ;)

Speaking of disagreeing with SARS, I'm gonna jump out on a limb and do so again. I am going to claim a theory that needs no justification as it is neither provable nor, to my knowledge, disproveable; I will leave it up to whomever reads it to decide what they think of it.

My theory is thus: True Wind is a Rune that serves Chaos. Thus, naturally, the future it fears most is that of Order. The world it shows its Bearers, the world it desires its Bearers to fight to avoid, is that of Order. That does not mean that Fate left unchecked will lead to Order; that only means that that is a future True Wind [and if I recall, True Fire; it has been some time since I played the game] fears.

It would be just as likely for a Rune devoted to Order to show its Bearer a future world of Chaos and aim said Bearer towards choices leading to more Order in the world, to prevent that world of Chaos from coming about.
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Post by demon eye »

I am nothing but "chilled down" and extremely calm. ;-) I know very well that you are a mere human. I was referring to the statement that I shouldn't contradict SARSadmin because of the fact you are who you are..so to speak. Like I said, I will dispute with anyone no matter who they are. Not me being excited, uncalm or anything, just stating a fact. Like I said, I'm not putting you on a pedestal and will treat you just like anyone else, but I will acknowledge what you have done for us fans of Suikoden. As for the information in Suikoden 3, we are given information about a "possible" fate of the world shown to us by a vision Luc sees through his True Wind Rune. It's in no way written in stone that fate is geared towards order based on a vision received from an individual who is a defective clone and has an unhealthy relationship which binds him to his True Rune. Like I stated, it is possible fate is geared towards dharma, I just believe that it isn't. As we know through the so-called creation story, the world was created after the clash between the Sword and Shield, even before that Darkness shed a tear to give birth to Sword and Shield. Before time, there was a constant clash in order to maintain balance. Shield clashed against Sword, and Sword slashed at Shield, neither gaining the upper hand. If Shield represents Chaos and Sword represents Order then we can deduce that those both represent the conflict associated with balancing Chaos and Order. It's simple to associate a theory of "fate" seeking balance with the battle between Sword and Shield. The actions of the mortal beings of the Suikoden World is what has altered the natural course of Fate (of course, this is only my opinion). Basically, I'm stating that we can deduce the natural course of fate based on visions given to Luc by the True Wind Rune which might even be manipulating him to see a vision that it wanted him to see. Of, course, it's also very possible you are right, as well. I just simply disagree on the fact that we can deduce that a vision can tell the actual fate of the world, but then again, it's the only thing we can go by for now. But, I just suggest that Luc fought to stop a fate he believed to be true and let's just say that the fate he saw is the real fate, why wouldn't Leknaat aid him to accomplish his goal instead of letting him just go off on his own to do the impossible? Leknaat always interfered in any other instance involving the fate of the Suikoden World, why not give it her all this time? Could it be because she knew that the fate Luc saw could not have been possible? Or could it be that she saw that there is no way to alter the path of fate that is already set in motion? Or could it be that Leknaat knows that fate will lead to balance? So many questions, that the game leaves open to us, so I ask where does it explicitly state that Luc's vision is the actual path of fate?
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Post by flame_champ »

Leeknat didn't help Luc because Luc wanted to end the life of millions of people to accomplish his goal.
...
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Post by demon eye »

And she helped Tir and Riou kill thousands by setting them on their paths, huh? All lives are important. Her neglect also allowed for the destruction of an entire Karaya village and the possible crumbling and annihilation of the several tribes in the Grasslands. Sorry, but in my view loss of lives is loss of lives anyway you look at it. I guess you can say it's better to lose a thousand than a million, but whose to justify that as the right means to an end. Leknaat has never considered the loss of lives before and I don't think that was her motives for not aiding or stopping Luc in Suikoden 3. The fact is that, she saw no need to intervene in Luc's affairs because either she believed his goals were impossible, she hadn't the power to stop him (which has already been established that she could have intervened if she wanted to and done something), she believed that his goals were in contrast to what she believed to be true. It's simple, Luc stated that he was trying to destroy his rune in order to prevent order which would cause stagnation in the Suikoden World. Leknaat is the keeper of balance. It's her job to maintain balance, correct? So, if Luc saw that the sacrifice of millions, due to the destruction of the True Wind Rune, was worth it in order to prevent stagnation that is destined by fate and needed in order to maintain balance, then Leknaat, the Keeper of Balance, would see it as a possible way to save the world from an inbalance, that's if Luc's vision is true and stagnation is the natural course of fate. Leknaat realizes that sacrifices must be made in order to obtain the ultimate "good" of the Suikoden World. She wouldn't view the sacrifice of lives as a suitable reason to neglect her duty as the Keeper of Balance.
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Post by Vextor »

Genso Shinsho Vol 12 has a special section concerning Luc and the destroyers. Within it, it is repeatedly stated that "Due to his visions from the True Wind Rune, Luc knew how the world would end."

There's no official account stating the possibility of the True Wind Rune possibly "tricking" Luc with visions, so at this point in that it is an unsubstantiated speculation.

I simply go with what Konami states officially, and that's it.
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Post by lucreborn »

SARSadmin wrote:Genso Shinsho Vol 12 has a special section concerning Luc and the destroyers. Within it, it is repeatedly stated that "Due to his visions from the True Wind Rune, Luc knew how the world would end."

There's no official account stating the possibility of the True Wind Rune possibly "tricking" Luc with visions, so at this point in that it is an unsubstantiated speculation.

I simply go with what Konami states officially, and that's it.
I have a question about that. I was at the end of the game yesterday and when luc was showing hugo the world that he sees he says something like "This is our future...at least one of them" What does this mean that there is another vision that could be a very good future????? Please help me with this subject :D
"I've always been alone, ever since I was born." ~luc suikoden 3~
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Post by demon eye »

That's all I needed to hear. Thanks SARSadmin and I now rest my case thanks to the aforementioned statement from canon evidence. ;-) *bows and admits the wrongness of aforementioned statements* But, if that is how the World will end then does Leknaat's job as Keeper of the Balance really serve a significant purpose? Maybe that is where the statement "is fate unchangeable?" comes from...hmmm. It makes more sense now. So, it would seem that based on this evidence Order/Dharma will win out, then maybe Leknaat is in fact working to establish more chaos right now just as Luc was, but not to the extent that Luc was willing to go because his way could only lead to chaos. So, Leknaat works against "fate". So, where does destiny come into play? Fate leads to Order, but where does destiny lead? It is clear that one does not mean the other in the Suikoverse. Fate does not coincide with Destiny. It seems that in order to achieve balance, Leknaat must go against the role she has been destined. Harmony is the happy medium between Order and Chaos. I now wonder if Leknaat has seen the same vision as Luc.
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Post by Black Fang »

LOL Dayamn SARS, seems like you got some people worshiping you here.

Anyways, you're free to debate your ass off demon eye. Noones stoping you. Just a quick reminder that its good to know what you're arguing for. I personaly just like to bring the truth or the most likely scenario out so that everyone can understand. O and for future reference, can you please paragraph your posts, for ease of reading pls?
demon eye wrote: Eventhough, it is very possible that the creators of Suikoden could have neglected reality totally and created Suikoden based off of totally new principles of science, but I find it hard to build a work of art without a firm canvass, meaning they have to have a sound base that actually works in order to even compose a work of fiction.
Konami (creators of suikoden as you say) did use this world as a canvass so to speak, but bear in mind that the world of Suikoden is based in what we would see as a historical place, even though they have the use of "guns", "boat engines" and "cloning systems". Not to mention the principles of Vampires and Werewolves which work on a wholly different system than that of this world. The Suikoden world is realistic in many aspects, yet fictional in just as many.
demon eye wrote:So, that's why this is speculation. Don't take things so literal. An idea is an idea. You have the right to try to prove me wrong and I have the right to argue my point.
Heh, if anyone knows about speculation, it is I. I understand ideas and I don't set to prove anyone wrong because "it is my right". My reason to prove someone wrong would be if either I know of facts that the other person doesn't or if their point seems either farfetched or just plain irrational.

The only reason I refered to SARS as the suikoden guru is because of the amount of official Konami information sources he has. If you truly want a Suikoden god, go worship one of the guys that created the game.
Harukaze wrote:My theory is thus: True Wind is a Rune that serves Chaos.
I just don't see this as an option as no true rune is more powerful than another, and if Wind (being one of the 5 elements) has 4 counterparts in a way. If Wind rune served Chaos, one of the other 4 would serve Order.....what about the other 3? Like you said, there is no proof against it nor for it but it seems kinda out there.
demon eye wrote:I know very well that you are a mere human
Dude, LoL. You don't even seem to try hahaha. :lol:
demon eye wrote:If Shield represents Chaos and Sword represents Order then we can deduce that those both represent the conflict associated with balancing Chaos and Order.
Where do people get this from????
demon eye wrote:So many questions, that the game leaves open to us, so I ask where does it explicitly state that Luc's vision is the actual path of fate?
It doesn't. He says
"This is our future...at least one of them"
Leknaat obviously has some information about fate and the future, but there is no evidence she can or cannot for that matter change the course of events to come. Riou did it at the end of the Dunan Unification Wars, so it wouldn't sound too improbable for Leknaat being capable of changing the path of fate.
demon eye wrote:And she helped Tir and Riou kill thousands by setting them on their paths, huh?
Once again, she doesn't CONTROL fate. Riou and Jowy were destined to play those roles out, she just showed them the way. In any case, if Riou and Jowy didn't kill Luca Blight, far more people would have died so your point is extremely arguable.
demon eye wrote:Leknaat has never considered the loss of lives before and I don't think that was her motives for not aiding or stopping Luc in Suikoden 3.
Why do you assume this? Maybe it wasn't her primary motive for stopping Luc because she does have history with Luc but there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence she doesn't consider the loss of human life. I respect your arguments but try and keep the facts as they are and if you assume something don't use such a strong statement.
lucreborn wrote:I have a question about that. I was at the end of the game yesterday and when luc was showing hugo the world that he sees he says something like "This is our future...at least one of them" What does this mean that there is another vision that could be a very good future????? Please help me with this subject
Well from what he says there are two possibilities. Either there is an alternate future (good or bad is yet to be known), or there are many alternate futures. All we know is that he had a vision of one future and mentioned that there are more than one, as for that future being good or bad, well that depends on your definition of good and bad. Actually even if you have a firm definition, it is still unknown if any alternet futures are "better" or "worse" than the one Luc tried to stop.
demon eye wrote:But, if that is how the World will end then does Leknaat's job as Keeper of the Balance really serve a significant purpose?
She certianly makes it sound like it does.
demon eye wrote:It is clear that one does not mean the other in the Suikoverse. Fate does not coincide with Destiny.
Hows so? You're going to have to define Fate and Destiny (at least to some extent) to prove anything about this argument.
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Post by demon eye »

First of all, no one is "worshipping" anyone. If you read my previous posts, you could obviously see that. And obviously I know what I'm arguing "for", as you state. The "truth", as you say, is that Luc claims to see a vision of a possible fate of the Suikoworld. SARSadmin cleared things up when he stated that the Genso Shinyo stated that Luc in fact actually knew the fate of the world and it was order, hence I stated my theory was wrong. If you couldn't follow the scenario I was laying out, then I apologize. Maybe I should draw little diagrams and stick men next time. ;-)

Seriously though, I don't see what was so hard to understand. I stated that Leknaat worked for balance and that her goals also coincided with the natural order of fate. I "believed" fate was destined to find harmony between chaos and order, but I was found to be wrong due to the reasons I have previously stated. That's the end of that discussion. I stated I was wrong and retracted any validity to the statements made pertaining to that subject.

Umm, I think you just rehashed the point I was trying to make with the whole canvass thing. I don't know if you were trying to contradict or support me there..oh well.

Seriously! I can worship the creators of the game as Suikoden gods! Let me get out my candles and prepare me some sacrifices! Any live chickens or virgins running around? LOL! I understand the point you are making. Please read my last post again and you will see that I was just showing respect to SARSadmin. No worhsipping, pedestals or live sacrifices needed.

And unfortunately sometimes I have to try, but not often. ;-)

Saying that he was a mere human was a remark made in jest meant to lighten up the situation. Whew! I guess the clearly implied sarcasm was way off on that one. I still can't understand where the worshipping aspect came from. I guess if I say the great Ghandi or the great Michael Jordan or the great pig, I worship them all, too?? Please don't take things so literally.

And the Shield equalling Chaos and Sword equalling Order comes from prior statements made by SARSadmin and you can find references to this throughout the plot of Suikoden 3. I think most individuals look at Chaos as a bad thing, but it's not necessarily so. Chaos allows for growth and development, where Order leaves everything stagnant..well, at least that's what they leave us to believe based on Luc's vision. Now, don't go and say I stated that Shield equals good and Sword equals bad either. Both Order and Chaos each have their own virtues.
Leknaat obviously has some information about fate and the future, but there is no evidence she can or cannot for that matter change the course of events to come. Riou did it at the end of the Dunan Unification Wars, so it wouldn't sound too improbable for Leknaat being capable of changing the path of fate.
Point taken. Note that I never stated she can or cannot change fate. I merely suggested that the vision Luc saw was not the natural order of fate, and that Leknaat worked for fate which equates to harmony between order and chaos.

This quote,
"This is our future...at least one of them"
actually helps prove my point.
Once again, she doesn't CONTROL fate. Riou and Jowy were destined to play those roles out, she just showed them the way. In any case, if Riou and Jowy didn't kill Luca Blight, far more people would have died so your point is extremely arguable.
Again I will state that I never said Leknaat controlled fate. I stated that I believes she works for fate which coincides with her title as Keeper of Balance. Also, you didn't get my point at all. The poster said that Leknaat didn't help Luc because his plan would have led to the deaths of millions.

I just stated that if Leknaat considered the loss of lives as a factor, then she would probably not have helped Tir or Riou either. Hell, she could have left Barbarossa in charge. Sure, Windy would have eventually gotten then the Soul Eater and invaded Harmonia to get her revenge and thousands could have died, but what is the difference between the thousands that died during the Gate Rune War and the potential lives that could have been lost if Windy got her wishes? Or what is the difference between the thousands and thousands of lives lost during the Dunan Unification War that Leknaat aided Riou with and the thousands upon thousand lives that could have been potentially lost if Luca suceeded in doing what he planned?

Are you saying that lives lost for a benevolent cause are any different than lives loss for a cruel cause? If that is true then, and I'm sorry to say this, your views are similar to that of Hitler's. Recall that Hitler's cause was believed to be a benevolent one, or at least that is what he believed. Oh, not to mention that Luca's motives were for what he believed to be the general "good" of Highland. I'm just saying that Leknaat can't justify who she helps based on how many lives would be lost.
Why do you assume this? Maybe it wasn't her primary motive for stopping Luc because she does have history with Luc but there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence she doesn't consider the loss of human life. I respect your arguments but try and keep the facts as they are and if you assume something don't use such a strong statement.


I respect your arguments, as well. Therefore, I will tell you why I made such a strong statement which is not really an assumption at all. I stated that because it is obviously clear. Leknaat can discern visions dealing with fate, but can't see everything clearly. My statement goes along with facts. If Leknaat knew what Luc was planning and had no idea whether he would fail or not, then it would be her duty to prevent Luc from completing his goals. I'm just stating that her decision to "do nothing" was negligent on her part.

Leknaat could foresee the destruction and loss of lives necessary for Tir and Riou to complete their goals and she stepped right in to do her duty. Why not do the same in the situation with Luc? She decided that she would let Luc determine his own fate and this could have led to the deaths of millions. So, tell me where does this not show that Leknaat's motives do not coincide with rescuing lives? The statement was used to allow for us all to think out of the box and realize that Leknaat may in fact only have the interest of herself in mind.

So, you tell me to use fact, but I ask where does it state that Leknaat is Mother Teresa and considered the lives of those who were sacrificed in her efforts? I'm not saying that Leknaat is inhuman. I was just stating that lives lost is lives lost no matter if they were for a noble cause or not and that Leknaat has shown us that she will do whatever was necessary to keep the balance. Her actions in Suikoden 3 are no different.

The loss of lives was not her motive for not stopping Luc because if she considered how many lives he would trample in order to complete his goals she would have done anything in her power to stop him and she didn't. Period. I just choose to not be so literal in my thought process and, as you stated, use facts. The facts have spoken and we have our own opinions and interpretations of them. This is just my interpretation of them.

Of course, her role as Keeper of Balance is important. I was typing down what I was thinking in my head based on another theory I had based on whether or not Leknaat saw the same vision Luc saw. Sorry about that.

And I will clear up the statement about Fate and Destiny. Based on the information stated by SARSadmin from the Genso Shinyo article, Luc saw how the world would end and that fate led to order, correct? So, therefore, we can say that Fate is inclined to move towards order if we take that evidence as truth.

Therefore, we need a force that seeks to balance the imbalance made by Fate. We need a force to oppose it. The main characters of each Suikoden game come from the Stars of Destiny. I suggest that they are the opposing force moving against Fate. Therefore, I define Fate as Order and Destiny as Chaos. *takes a deep breath and welcomes all challengers*

Note: I took your suggestion and broke things into paragraphs. I hope this is easier to read and I hope people will actually get to the end of this long diatribe before growing bored with it and exiting. ;-)
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Post by Vextor »

lucreborn wrote: I have a question about that. I was at the end of the game yesterday and when luc was showing hugo the world that he sees he says something like "This is our future...at least one of them" What does this mean that there is another vision that could be a very good future????? Please help me with this subject :D
This is simply in the realm of speculations, but it is probably due to the fact that fate is changeable. The True Runes are the guiding forces of the Suikoden World, and their "will" is very powerful. It is very difficult to go against the will of a True Rune, but it is doable as seen in the game.

As Leknaat tells to Luc, fate is changeable, even though the wheels of fate are heavy and turning it is laborous indeed.

To use an analogy, a child has very limited control over his or her life--their parents generally control most all aspects of their life. What they eat, where they go on the weekend, what movie they see, what school they go to, what doctor they go to, etc are all typically dictated by the parents. It is difficult for a child to have direct control over these decisions, but they can exert indeirect influence, or reject the choice with incredible ferocity until the parent decides to chnage their mind. That's sort of what True Runes act like, they are like parents to the Suiikoden world, but parents who are completely indifferent to their children.
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Post by Ulthwithian »

I find two things quite interesting about this debate.

First, that Order is considered to be the end-state of the world. This comes from Luc's visions. However, this goes against all natural physics (Second Law of Thermodynamics). You can blame the Runes for this, apparently. (Note: I am not disputing this fact. I'm just noting that it is counter to 'normality'.)

Second, and something I would like to at least explore, is why the Sword is on the side of Order, and Shield is on the side of Chaos. This runs directly against any iconic explanation. Generally speaking, whenever a Sword and a Shield are used in a symbolic or metaphorical sense, the Sword stands for Chaos, and the Shield stands for Order. That is, a Sword is used to break things down (as Sword's boast was to Shield), while the Shield is used to keep things whole (as Shield's rebuttal was to Sword). I am wondering why the symbolism is being reversed.

Scott Hebert
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