Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Hypotheses for, and analyses of, the various Suikoden characters.
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Jack of All Trades
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Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Jack of All Trades » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:33 pm

I just came up with a pretty good theory of why Viki has two different stars of destiny. I was thinking about it this morning when for some reason or another Futurama came to mind. There is an episode where via the shenanigans of time travel Fry literally becomes his own grandpa. He becomes the paradox of his own birth.

I'm not sure how a Star of Destiny is decided but if it's anything like your astrological sign it happens at birth. What if via the magic of time travel, Viki causes herself to be born prematurely?

The beauty of this theory is that it doesn't matter if that's not how a Star of Destiny is assigned to a person. If it happens through the predetermined course of fate then being a time traveling member of the 108 Stars of Destiny with the power to disrupt fate should be able to change anyone's destiny before it's assigned to them.

I'm proposing that Viki is at least metaphorically her own grandmother.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:15 am

It's never explicitly stated how a SoD is assigned, at least not in the main games. In Tierkreis (and the original novel), the SoD's are spirits of ancient demons (or warriors?) that possess the people or something like that.

So you say Young Viki is just a time paradoxon? Can you elaborate a bit more? I can't see at the moment what is so good about the theory, but I slept only 3 hours, so that may be the problem, lol.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Jack of All Trades » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:39 am

So if it is the 108 Demons from the original novel then, Viki during her time travels caused herself to become possessed by a different demon.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Pyriel » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:20 am

There's not a lot to say about it, really. There's no more evidence for it than the theory that nearly everyone is "Viki" in her messed up world, which was intelligently designed by Escher, I guess. I might be able to make a better case for that, since it removes the only exception so far to the "no changing stars" rule. However, I don't recall how strongly its hinted that Viki and Young Viki are the same person. I remember it's what I assumed when I played the game, but I don't recall either of them saying it outright. It might be that the Gaidens clear that up.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:52 am

Jack of All Trades wrote:So if it is the 108 Demons from the original novel then, Viki during her time travels caused herself to become possessed by a different demon.

I don't know, basically you're trying to solve on paradoxon (the same person appears at the same type, but at different stadiums of growth) with another paradoxon (Viki is changing the circumstances of her own birth). So far, we've only seen Viki being at one place at one point in time, so saying she travels back to her birth and changes things might not be too plausible. Also, it doesn't explain why Young Viki seems a lot more mature than Old Viki.

For the SoD thing in the original novel, from wikipedia:
Based on the Taoist concept that each person's destiny is tied to a Star of Destiny (宿星), the 108 Stars of Destiny are stars that represent 108 demonic overlords who have been banished by the Taoist sage, Shang Ti. Having repented since their banishment, the stars are released from their place of banishment by accident, and are reborn in the world as 108 heroes who band together for the cause of justice.


So it's not only possession, but reincarnation. It's not clear how the Suikoden concept is the same. Only Tierkreis tries to explain it a bit and I'm sure it's explained as possession of a spirit. Every other game never questions the concept of SoD, so it's all guesswork.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:24 am

it's actually very strongly hinted that Little Viki is a future-version of Big Viki.
in the S3 recruitment scene, Big Viki sneezes and disappears, then Little Viki appears and says something like "i am sorry for falling.. please step aside", and Big Viki drops from the sky.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby sticky-runes » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:32 am

Maybe she does a Gandalf and sacrifices herself to save the 108 stars at some point in the future, and ends up being reborn!

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby bluemask » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:01 am

@KFC: I wouldn't say it was really a hint. Young Viki only says: "I don't really want to do this". So she might have "teleported/summoned" Big Viki but not indicating they're actually one and the same.

However, if Young Viki is the daughter of Big Viki, I'm thinking that Young Viki is just following Big Viki so her existence wouldn't end. Just like the grandfather paradox lol.

OR maybe... Big Viki sneezed out Young Viki into existence.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby gildedtalon » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:02 am

Young Viki and Old Viki are the same person
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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Sasarai10 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:04 am

gildedtalon wrote:Young Viki and Old Viki are the same person



If that's true then that makes sense about the Roy = Nadir theory,who are different stars. But rumor is that his star is mixed up with Guillaum's star



Really i don't get the point of having two Vikis in S3. Perhaps she was a "filler" because they ran from ideas in order to complete the 108 star list :P

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby patapi » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:25 am

Stars being pre-determined does not explain characters with changeable Stars like Tomo and Feather/Sigfried/Abizboah.

Suikoden II is supposed to be the one and only flawless Suikoden title, so it simply cannot be wrong.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Sasarai10 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:27 pm

patapi wrote:Stars being pre-determined does not explain characters with changeable Stars like Tomo and Feather/Sigfried/Abizboah.

Suikoden II is supposed to be the one and only flawless Suikoden title, so it simply cannot be wrong.


Yeah and i really wonder why they chose Tomo to have 2 dfferent stars? And not someone else like Bob or Shilo for example :roll:

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby veriaqa » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:42 pm

patapi wrote:Stars being pre-determined does not explain characters with changeable Stars like Tomo and Feather/Sigfried/Abizboah.

Suikoden II is supposed to be the one and only flawless Suikoden title, so it simply cannot be wrong.


Tomo stars is changeable, yes. But it is also pre-determined. So, what's the problem?
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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Antimatzist » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:18 am

Actually, Tomo has one star. Isn't it explained by Konami that ever yplaythrough is a slightly alternate universe or something?

Also, it's just our perception that stars never change.. The SoD concept is rarely explined in the games, but if it works like in the book, the characters are simly "possessed" by the ghosts of demons or something. I don't see why that demon could not change.

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Re: Why Young and Old Viki have different Stars

Postby Wolkendrache » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:16 am

Antimatzist, glad to see there's one more person who've read the novel.
But in the book, the characters are born with their so-called "evil demon king spirit" and we can assume that only death will release them. There is no interchange, because it doesn't make sense for the simple reason that the star designations as well as the nicknames of course are assigned to and describe one specific character, e.g. Shu is the Star of Wisdom, Riou is the Heavenly Leader Star. Depending on who you recruit, Kasumi or Valeria, Tomo is either the Wounded Star or the Star of Intelligence. That doesn't make sense. On the other hand however, after S1, the developers didn't follow the rules of the novel so strictly anymore, so let's just accept the developers' artistic freedom.
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