The Rune of the Beginning

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:13 pm

Did the Rune of the Beginning ever exist? Before you scoff at the question, think about it. The legend goes that the True Runes were jewels on Sword and Shield, yes? There are 27 True Runes, an odd number. It seems from the legend that Sword and Shield were equal in power. And, quite frankly, can you imagine the Rune of the Beginning, whole, being on either Sword or Shield? The Rune of the Beginning thus probably did not exist at the Beginning, ironically enough, and perhaps never has since. Perhaps -could not- exist, since it is unknown if the Runes can be split against once they reform; they are not halves of a True Rune in the same sense of the Back and Front halfs of the Gate Rune, for example.

Now, actual truth or metaphor to this world, the story of Sword and Shield represents conflict, specifically that of one between agressor and defender. It certainly seems possible that each True Rune was on one side or another of this original conflict. If they were jewels on the original Sword and Shield, then certainly each was on one and not the other, yes? Even if it's metaphor, it suggests that all of the True Runs were involved in this earliest of conflicts.

Riou and Jowy both live in the end of GS2, officially, yes? Konami flat out said this was what happened? Perhaps it is that the Rune of the Beginning cannot truly be combined until, again ironically, the ending. Neither Riou nor Jowy will live forever - that Konami -has- confirmed - and the conflict -will- fall anew eventually to two others, sometime down the line.

....

I seem to have forgotten my point. I guess most of that is just idle speculation now. Anyway, uhm, back to my original question, since most of that is rendered useless if the answer is a simple yes ^_^ Has the Rune of the Beginning ever existed in its true form as a True Rune in the history of the world?

Post by **patapi** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:07 pm

I'm quite sure the odd number was due to the elemental runes. There are 5 elements and subtract those from 27, we'll have 22 in total. Exactly 11 on each. Furthermore, the number 22 fits well with the Tarot cards speculation.

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:42 am

Tarot speculation? Forgive me for being the type of member who only shows up around the time a new game is released; I haven't been on the boards for about two years, so I'm rather unfamiliar with the concept. I -might- have heard it once back when GS3 was coming out but it isn't ringing very many bells.

Still wish I knew what my damned point was in the original post

Fliktor · Post by **Fliktor** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:23 am

I always think of it that there are 13 runes alligned with choas, and 13 to order. Then the Rune of Beggining would be alligned directly in between in balance. Split in half, the Black Sword and Bright Shield are each alligned either with Choas or Order, depending on how you view the metaphor of Sword, Shield, Chaos and Order.

I know there are 5 elemental True Runes, but they need not be of different or opposing allignments. All 5 could be Order or Choas. If they weren't, and there was 2 for Chaos and 3 for Order (or vica verca) then in my mind, that would not create balance.

Post by **patapi** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:14 am

About the Tarot theory. It used to be discussed on the old forum, but SuikoX wrote about it here.

Why can't all 5 of the elements be neuter, exempt from the alignment with chaos and order? They themselves had their own smaller circle of balance, as presented in Suikoden III.

Fliktor · Post by **Fliktor** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:34 am

Personally I don't adhere to the Tarot/Rune Theory; I remember reading long and lengthy semantic discussions about it. But in the end, there is more evidence suggesting that all the True Runes are alligned either to Chaos or Order. Luc's True Wind Rune itself was alligned, we can see this due to the visions he showed or the Dharma ruled universe. to simply remove the 5 elemental runes from the rest of the 27 True Runes seems illogical simply because we've already seen that atleast one elemental True Rune has an allignment; so logically I would say that the other 4 have an allignment as well.

I don't think it's a conicidence that all the 5 elemental runes are present around the Grasslands; neither to I think it's a coincidence that both half of the Runes of Beggining were never held by wanders where someone took one half to Island Nations, and the other was taken off to Falena (or somewhere equally far off). But I don't feel that warrant's enough (if any) proof that the elemental runes are exempt from Order and Chaos and share their own smaller circle of balance.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:06 pm

If you take the balance between order and chaos literally then you would have to take into consideration that every True Rune we know of has both a positive and negative aspect to it which would make them all neuter persay. But, I believe that the True Runes are divided 13 to Order and Chaos just as a poster has mentioned before. The Rune of Beginning would probably be that which connects them as everything has an origin and the True Runes should be the same. I also believe that there are various classes associated to different True Runes, but that is for another discussion.

Fliktor · Post by **Fliktor** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:48 am

I agree that all Runes have a possitive aspect, and a negative aspect to them. I don't agree that The Rune of Beggining connects them all though, I think that is only a representation of the battle between Sword and Shield and has no more connection or power than any other True Rune. The only difference from the Rune of Beggining is that it has aspects of both Chaos and Order in it.

demon eye - I understand entirely your point about a balance within the True Rune, so perhaps I should change my theory a little. True Runes are as sentient as the bearers that hold them; they have their own thoughts, just the same way that the bearers can grow to have control over the rune as well. So it's very possible that a rune could originally have a mind towards Choas, whilst the bearer over time sways the rune into Order.

But again, I think I'm going to contradict myself once again with the Luc example. He was attempting to tip the balance as to avoid Dharma being triumphant in the on-going battle. So to me that would say that at present the runes are in balance (13 for Chaos, 13 for Order).

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:14 am

Actually, and this is for GeddoeMan3, it is perfectly suitable to think of True Runes as being in a particular class amongst themselves. There are different classes amongst us humans as their are different classes amongst animals, so it is simple to suggest that their a different class amongst these sentient entities. I agree that it would be utterly pointless to see them as tools, but I liken them to parasitic entities. You, GeddoeMan3, say that the True Runes alter their bearers and choose them. Well, I don't believe they alter their bearers at all. I believe they choose a particular bearer that they sense has appropriate characteristics to help them achieve their goals already inherent in their personality and they feed on those characteristics. The True Runes don't give the bearers anything added to their pyshe, they just bring out the parts of their psyche that's already their so they can exploit it. But, over years a bearer can learn to master their particular True Rune and come to a significant balance. As for how to class the True Runes, I do believe that they are divided, but I believe that each of the True Runes lean both towards Order and Chaos because you can't have one without the other. The natural conflict is innate to these sentient beings. Even the Roman and Greek gods had opposing natures to them. The Greek god of chaos, even had a creative side to them, as without chaos there would be nothing but stagnation and no growth. We can't look at chaos and order as either all good or all bad. It has been said before, in the Suikoden World there is no defined good or evil. Now, with that said, I think there exist definite lines that have been drawn for conflict within the True Runes. This is clear because we see that certain Elements naturally oppose each other as do some of the other True Runes. Fire opposes Water, Earth opposes Wind, and Thunder is opposed by one of them..lol. Cirlce opposes Change and then we have the True Runes that naturally oppose themselves. The lines are drawn and we see the inevitable conflict building between the True Runes. The Ruling, The Serving and The Rebellious is what I class all the True Runes in as an appropriate category. There exist more in The Serving and less in The Ruling, but I believe my theory is sound that even within True Runes their is a natural regime, not an unbalance of power because even the Greek and Roman gods held equivalent power, but just a natural way in which these sentient beings operate. I'm actually placing the 17 or 18 we know into these 3 categories in order to test my theory. And thanks Fliktor for your acknowledgement, but I don't know if the bearer guides the True Rune into order or chaos. I think it is a mixture between the two or a grey area where chaos and order can coexist in harmony.

Fliktor · Post by **Fliktor** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:37 pm

Makes quite an interesting read demon eye, I think the mixture you talk of

I think it is a mixture between the two or a grey area where chaos and order can coexist in harmony.

Is balance. Or perhaps you meant that and were being far more subtle about it than me ^_^

Anyway, the only thing I have a problem with is the balance of the elemental runes. Creating equal opposition between the runes is impossible as there are an odd number. As you say Fire against Water, Wind against Earth. Which leaves the problem of Lighting (by the way, this is just an example of the opposites). So the only possible answers I can see would be;

1) All 5 Elemental Runes share the same allignment.
2) There is a 6th Rune that could act as an opposite for the remaining rune.
3) That the runes don't need a exact opposite opposing rune. Fire doesn't necessarily have to have a differing allignment to Water. All there would need is for 13 of the Runes to be alligned to Chaos and 13 for Order.

The nature of certain Runes are fairly straight forward. Circle Rune and Rune of Change would most likely be opposites, but that again would not be necessary if there weren't alligned differently. This makes it easier for more abiguous runes like Fire or Gate; they would not need polar opposites in runes, just an opposing rune. If that makes any sense.

Btw, I agree highly with your point about True Runes acting like parasites. But I fear we're moving far too off topic than originally intended.

demon eye · Post by **demon eye** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:08 pm

I agree that we may be straying off the beaten path, but this is an interesting side topic which doesn't actually totally miss the topic all together. In the Chinese and Japanese culture I believe there is a 6 Elemental make-up, this even leads to Philosophical contents as I believe there was a theory that discusses how there is a 6 materials that compose nature. Wood, Steel, Fire, Water, Air and Earth. I'm not saying that there is a 6 elemental make-up in the Suikoverse, but like you say, it could be possible. As for allignments, I don't know if any of the True Runes completely allign to either Order or Chaos. I think that each True Rune can be associated with both sides of Order and Chaos, that's how balance is made in the Suikoden World. You can't have balance if one side leans to chaos and the other to order. I think that the True Runes need an outside force to help them balance the conflicting nature that is innate to each one of them. That's why they are always involved in wars. Each True Rune is going through internal conflict within itself and it causes them to seek host to balance them out. I don't think the nature of any of the True Runes is straight forward or obvious, that's what makes them interesting and unique. It's just clear that each rune has an innate opposition built into itself, just like we believe that each human being has a conflicting yin and yang spirit that composes of our souls. Of course, this is just speculation but I see so many examples that support the dual nature of these senitent beings. You give an example of ambiguous True Runes like Fire and Gate. But, let's look at Fire closely and we will see how it isn't so ambiguous of it's innate opposing nature. Fire can be destructive as it burns and scolds everything it touches, but heat is also necessary for sustaining life. So, it can destroy but it's also necessary for creation. The Gate has a Front and Back. The power to bring beings from the World of Emptiness and the power to send them back to the World of Emptiness safety.

Post by **Vextor** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:42 pm

Actually, China and Japan has a five-element makeup, such as in the Five Element school of Daoism, and the ever so popular Onmyodo. The elements are Wood, Water, Metal, Fire, and Earth. However, Buddhism preaches the five elements as being Fire, Water, Earth, Wind and Air (known as the "Five Greats".

The two systems aren't combined into one as far as I know.

Marshmallow · Post by **Marshmallow** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:48 pm

I find both the separations of Wind and Air, and of Earth and Wood (and to an extent, Metal) to be somewhat redundant. Are the elements supposed to each embody a certain feeling or emotion, or something else?