The Rune of the Beginning

Questions about the locations mentioned in the series; and those about the backstory not seen in the games.
demon eye
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Post by demon eye »

I stand corrected on the 6 element theme of China and Japan. Maybe I was focusing on the philosophical principles of matter and their adjourning elements that compose existence itself. So, the 6 element statement is retracted.

As for the statement about the personality of Wind, Air, Earth, Wood and Metal. Wind and Air are similar to me. I don't know the reason behind Wind and Air being known as the "Five Greats" as I have not studied that. Maybe someone else can fully elaborate on that. As for Wood, Earth, and Metal, I can only say that Metal and Wood come from Earth and that may be the only similarity they have. Earth is all encompassing, while Wood and Metal describe certain aspects that exist on earth. I could go into a detailed philosophical discussion about the nature of stone and the stone statue, but I'll save that for another discussion if further elaboration is needed.

If you think about the elements naturally occuring in nature, then you would notice that Thunder had no place in the original concept. I forget the opposition lay-out for the elements, but I believe Earth also opposes Lightning while Earth is also opposed by Wind. Lightning is the only True Rune throwing a monkey-wrench in my theory.

We can also argue that there is an implicit 7 Elemental scheme present if you consider darkness and resurrection. Either way you look at it there is an imbalance.

The TLR may be the balancing element within the natural conflict between the Elemental True Runes. Let's just take the characteristics of Lightning. What purpose does it serve for the overall good of the SuikoWorld? Obviously it is there for a reason, I just can't clearly point out what that reason is. It hurts my theory a great deal. I'll have to think about the True Lightning Rune a little bit more.

To GeddoeMan3, does your previous argument mean that you believe that True Runes alter the freedom of their bearers to choose? Well, if that is your argument, then I will state that the majority of the True Rune bearers chose to bear their corresponding True Rune, pretty much all of them except for Luc and Sasarai who were born adjourned to their respective True Runes as vessels.

The True Runes need not alter the actions of their bearers if they choose individuals who will naturally follow the path which is best suited for them. That's precisely why only special individuals have the ability to bear True Runes. We just don't see people walking around with True Runes. Each bearer has a special goal destined to them and the True Runes just feed off these individuals to further their goals. I just believe that they manipulate events to get to the best bearer for them.

I agree that each True Rune has just as much Order as Chaos innate in them except for the Sword and Shield (Rune of Beginning). The Sword and Shield (symbolized by the Bright Shield and Black Sword) cause the imbalance which threatens the inner balance for the other 26 True Runes. This causes instability and that's why I believe that battle lines have been drawn by each True Rune. When the Rune of Beginning becomes one again, I believe that the natural balance will be restored and that is why it's official that the Rune of Beginning is still in its component parts and that is also why the instability between Chaos and Order remains.

Yes, Riou and Jowy defeated the pull of the component parts of the Rune of Beginning which drove those friends to battle, but I believe that is a temporary fix as those two will grow old, die and then the Bright Shield and Black Sword will return to the ruins and the conflict will begin anew. Also, I liken the relationship of the 26 other True Runes to that of a parent to a child. Bear with me.

The child is composed of both genetic make-ups from the mother and father..hence, the 26 other True Runes have both Chaos and Order within them. Now, when a child witnesses the mother and father in an argument, eventhough they are composed of both parts of the parents, the child will naturally become confused and whether the child wants to or not, it will unconsciously choose a side no matter the fact that the child loves both parents equally. I believe this is the case for the other 26 True Runes.

Each of the other 26 True Runes have Order and Chaos innate within them, they are just torn because the conflict between their "parent", the Rune of Beginning. They have unconsciously chosen sides even though they agree with both "parents". This is the natural of the current conflict. I hope my analogy was easily followed.
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Fliktor
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Post by Fliktor »

Probably a much shorter reply that you post demon eye, but I say I largly agree with your theory.

I like you're analogy, but I don't think that all True Runes have picked a side, if any. It's possible some are alligned to Chaos and some to Order. But I think that most are still undecided. But I don't think that's the important part of the theory. It doesn't matter what allignement the elemental runes have, or the Sould Eater, or any of them. The Wind Rune is a Rune alligned to Order is it not? But that doesn't mean the other 4 Runes could not all be alligned to Chaos.
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demon eye
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Post by demon eye »

As of now, I cannot state as to which any of the True Runes are aligned for certain. I have only gone as fas as putting the ones we know so far into 3 classes. From what we have seen, we can assume that the True Wind Rune wants Order based on the vision it shows Luc, but we cannot know for certain.

And you are absolutely correct, the other 4 Elemental Runes could lean towards Chaos, but that would defeat the purpose of the natural opposing nature we clearly see in 4 of the 5 Elemental True Runes.

Maybe the alignment of the True Runes matter and maybe it does not, but we see that Order and Chaos play a significant role. It would be hard to believe that these sentient beings don't constitute Order and Chaos in the SuikoWorld.
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

Where has it been said that True Runes are aligned to either chaos or order?
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
demon eye
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Post by demon eye »

It doesn't state it explicity so no link can be provided. But, I ask, what does clear evidence point to? If we see a person with a bloody knife, standing over a dead body knifed to death, do we really need it to be directly stated that the person holding the knife is the murderer if it is already clear?

Now, I cannot say that it is that clean cut in this particular instance, but the themes of the game point to order and chaos and whether fate is changeable. These sentient beings called True Runes are the most sought after things and yet they are unknown by many. The whole entire Suikoden 3 game was based on Luc trying to destroy his True Wind Rune in order to prevent the fate he saw of the world which would have led to Order.

The True Wind Rune showed the Order which is fated to the SuikoWorld. Now can you say that it is not clearly implied that True Runes have something to do with Order and Chaos which is an overall theme in the SuikoWorld in which the True Runes have created? I think you will be hard pressed to argue that they have no relation to the Chaos and Order present in the SuikoWorld.
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Vextor
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Post by Vextor »

Actually, what throws another monkey rench into the whole True Rune issue is that in Volum 5 of the Suikoden 3 Manga, it is stated that True Runes are divided into forces of Order and Chaos. It isn't stated which ones are aligned with order or chaos or even if they are equal in number. Seeing that tha manga is written with Konami's blessing, it probably should be considered canon, but maybe not. That's a touchy subject.

As far as the five element schools, if people want to learn why it is classified that way, it's simply how it is in those religions so we can't really say anything about whether it makes sense. Ifanyone is interested in the actual explanations, you're encouraged to research it because it's not too difficult to find (with google).
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Post by Shirofan »

Since people seem fixated on this single piece of evidence then I'll use that as the reasoning behind why it isn't that simple:

From Luc's rhetoric it can be gathered that all True Runes can perceive the future, and that he believes that absolute order is the inevitable fate of the world from what the True Wind Rune showed him.

Let's assume that is correct; thus all the other True Runes know this to be the shape of the future. If they all know that order wins, would any of them be aligned with chaos? And if any of them were wouldn't they be more pro-active in changing the fate of the world?

The conclusion is that they are not, hence the assumption is wrong; and so either what Luc saw wasn't the real fate of the world or that the True Runes are not closely aligned with order and chaos at all.
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Post by demon eye »

I would be inclined to follow your reasoning, Shirofan, if all the other True Runes have the same vision that the True Wind Rune showed Luc. I don't believe that to be true, though.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if they all share the same vision and don't care about Order or Chaos, but as SARSadmin stated, the Suikodn 3 manga states that each True Rune is divided into forces of Order and Chaos. If this is true and canon, then your reasoning would be false. So the most we can do now is speculate.

But, you asked wouldn't the other True Runes be more pro-active. Well, I believe they have been very pro-active. The proof is that in each game we have a True Rune present and in each major war we have the present of a True Rune. So, if that isn't them being pro-active then I don't know what being pro-active is.
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Post by Vextor »

That conclusion is problematic due to the fact that we have no idea how exactly the True Runes are aligned to order and chaos. Perhaps more true runes are aligned to order than that of chaos. Or perhaps the True Runes simply "take turns" in destroying and creating worlds.

It is also faulty to assume that True Runes behave like human beings--such as changing allegiances because they know they would lose. True Runes may simply have no choice in their alignment towards chaos or order, or they may not even care if the "this" world ends--they can simply go to another world (which is possible). They may even have an agreement where "order wins in this bi-millenium cycle, but chaos would win the next cycle."
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Post by demon eye »

I totally agree, and I understand that there are flaws to my assumptions, but nothing ventured nothing gained is my motto. I am of the mindset that True Runes make decisions that ring into eternity and anything they do is for furthering their own individual goals, but since we can't explicitly state what their goals are we cannot make a firm statement as to the validity of any of our statements. Stupid lack of canon information! But, a speculation is just that...speculation. Anything is feasible at this point as long as canon evidence doesn't state otherwise.
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Post by Vextor »

Another fact to throw in is that there are only 27 True Runes among all of the "Million Worlds." That is why you have the Dragon Rune, which allows them to survive outside their home world. There are also forces that wish to take True Runes away from the default "Suikoden world," as well. For that reason, True Runes may possibly consider "our" world as merely one out of a million battlefield.
demon eye
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Post by demon eye »

Funny that you said that, I had once created a theory stating that the True Runes are mounting a battle offensive against each other like the Norse gods did in preparation for Ragnarok. It is quite an interesting work of art..maybe I'll post it eventually. But, that does pose another interesting twist. Out of the "Million Worlds" only 27 True Runes govern them. It may even be possible that some of the other True Runes exist in another "world".

Have the "forces" trying to take True Runes from the "Suikoden World" been properly discussed? I am not well rehearsed on those forces. The Dragon Rune, Night Rune and Gate Rune are necessary for the transfer of beings between "worlds". That does present something interesting to ponder. It's even possible that the principles that govern the "Suikden World" are completely negated by these other worlds. Interesting indeed!
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Post by Harukaze »

I still believe and will continue to do so that if nothing else, True Wind serves Chaos, which is why of all possible futures it showed one of Order to Luc, the horror of Order gone too far; it would fight that fate at any cost, and pushed Luc to do the same. Yuber, we know, is a servant of Chaos - not his Rune, though there is a fairly strong chance that is the case, but Yuber himself - which further explains why he would follow Luc. I don't care what other Runes serve which side of the equation, but I am utterly convinced Wind serves Chaos.
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Post by Harukaze »

Going back slightly to the original topic as started, if it is true that the Runes follow one alignment and cannot or will not change this alignment, because they may lose the ultimate war or otherwise, it could be related to the idea of them being gems on the original Sword and Shield. Thus, one or the other was the concept of Chaos and its gems thus served Chaos; and the other was Order and its gems served Order.
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