Highland Armies in S2

Questions about the locations mentioned in the series; and those about the backstory not seen in the games.
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Highland Armies in S2

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:49 pm

I’m a little confused about it, because not only do various sources contradict to each other, but also to themselves. The three sources I’m referring to are the game, suikosource character portraits, and suikodenwikia. Maybe someone who've read the novel can help out?

There’s no question about the 1. Highland Army (White Wolf Army), it’s led by Luca until Jowy takes over.

2./4. Highland Army: Suikosource says about Han that he was leading the 4. Army (Royal Guards). At the same time it says about Solon Jhee that he led the 4. Army, while it says about Culgan that he served under Solon who led the 2. Army. In the game, Solon introduces himself as the general of the 2. Army, but later, Klaus introduces Han as the general of the 2. Army. Suikodenwikia says that Han leads the 2. Army, and Solon the 4. Army.

Question 1: Who are the (initial) leaders of the 2. and 4. Armies?

The 3. Army is initially led by Kiba in all of the sources. I can’t remember the game presenting an official successor after Kiba’s defection. Suikosource suggests that Seed finally became its general (Jowy succeeded Kiba, and when he took over the 1. Army, Seed succeeded). Suikodenwikia contradicts itself saying the same in the character portrait of Seed, but in the article about the Highland army it says that Culgan finally became the general of the 3. Army.
Note that Jowy seems to have succeeded Solon first (whatever army he led), then when Kiba defected, he became general of the 3. Army, and finally became commander in chief (1. Army) after Luca’s death.

Question 2: Who are the generals of the 3. Army after Kiba and Jowy?

Solon’s successor: After Solon’s execution, Jowy became general of the 4. Army until he took over the 3. Army. On suikosource, I haven’t found information about who led the 4. Army after Jowy. I can’t remember what the game mentioned. Suikodenwikia again contradicts itself saying that Culgan became general of the 4. Army with Seed as vice-general. The latter would then succeed Jowy as general of the 3. Army. However, in the other article it says that Sasarai succeeded Jowy in the 4. Army, and after he was chased away by Luc, Yuber finally became general of the 4. Army.

Question 3: Who are Solon’s successors (except Jowy)?
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby yumsky » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:49 pm

1 (White Wolf Army) is clear already.

I think 2 & 4 have got sth to do with translation errors because Suikoden 2 have looottsss of translation error. just imagine that one is the imperial city guard (led by Han), and the other one is the one that can move around. Or maybe I just forgot which is which, its been a long time.

When Jowy became King, Culgan replaced Jowy's unit (if i remembered it correctly, Culgan said it when he's delivering the peace treaty letter to HQ)

So these are the units of Highland Army and their leaders:
1 - Jowy
2 (assuming this is the Imperial Guards) - Han
3 - Kiba, but then replaced by Yuber (summoned by Leon
4 - Culgan (with Seed as his second in command

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:32 pm

yumsky got the initial assignment correct (except 4 is Solon Jhee, not Culgan). The gensopedia is the most accurate source, the information at suikosource is (unfortunately) not that complete and correct at times:
http://gensopedia.theirstar.com/index.p ... Cunningham
Suikoden Wikia is just copying texts from all over the web, the gensopedia is sourced by Japanes epublications (which often contradict themselves as well, but that's Konami's fault)

That confusion about Solon Jhee is a translation error iirc.

On your second question, I'm not sure it is ever stated in the game. But I haven't played it in a longer time

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:44 pm

Antimatzist wrote:yumsky got the initial assignment correct (except 4 is Solon Jhee, not Culgan).

…and except 1 is Luca, not Jowy. But s/he meant after Jowy became king, but then Kiba had long gone.
(@yumsky: I can’t remember the game mentioning Yuber as general of the third, and none of my sources say this iirc. Where did you get that from?)

Gensopedia is one of the sources where Han is general of the second. Unfortunately it doesn’t say anything about Seed’s and Culgan’s assignments. All sources mostly contradict: game, suikosource, suikox, gensopedia, suikodenwikia.

Han as general of the second makes sense, because with regard to the typically relevant factors for rank assignment (inheritance, exceptional merits, etc.), Han should be far superior to Solon. In other words, being the youngest and newest general, Solon makes most sense as general of the fourth army. Thereby (following gensopedia here) the initial assignment is:
1 – Luca
2 – Han
3 – Kiba
4 – Solon
Then after Solon screwed up:
1 – Luca
2 – Han
3 – Kiba
4 – Jowy
After Kiba defected:
1 – Luca
2 – Han
3 – Jowy
4 – Culgan
After Luca’s death:
1 – Jowy
2 – Han
3 – Culgan or Seed
4 – Culgan, then maybe someone else (Sasarai, then Yuber)

Again, unfortunately I don’t have the Suikoden encyclopediae (and couldn’t read them very well anyway). I’m just speculating here, but assigning a non-Highland as general sounds strange to me. Why would Sasarai and Yuber be made generals, but not Lucia and Gilbert? I have no source here to rely on, but would Jowy really pick Yuber or someone else as general of a Highland army over Culgan and/or Seed? On the other hand, while Lucia and Gilbert led their own army into battle, Yuber led Highland troops when he was in charge of defending Greenhill, and yes, he was fully in charge, wasn’t he?
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:04 pm

Ok Jowy taking over from Solon Jhee seems to be correct, it's in Rowd's article:
http://gensopedia.com/wiki/Rowd

I don't think Jowy takes over Kiba's position. The reason simply being that there is not that much time between Kiba surrendering and Luca's death.

Sasarai was never part of the Highland forces, but simply sent as an aid of Harmonia.

I contacted the owner of the gensopedia for more information.

EDIT: Got a response and you got it completely right.
http://theirstar.tumblr.com/post/113289 ... -to-an-ask

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:32 pm

Thanks Antimatzist, would be great to get some information from Japanese official sources.

yumsky wrote:When Jowy became King, Culgan replaced Jowy's unit (if i remembered it correctly, Culgan said it when he's delivering the peace treaty letter to HQ)

I just checked a Let’s Play Suikoden 2 on youtube. When Culgan arrives for the peace treaty offer (shortly after Jowy became king), he introduces himself as general of the third. We don’t know whether he replaced Jowy in the third, which would mean that Jowy raised from general of the fourth to general of the third for a short time, or whether the position of general of the third was vacant after Kiba left and until Jowy became king. In this late setup (Jowy 1, Han 2, Culgan3) either Seed or Yuber must then be general of the fourth…

Btw: When Riou and Nanami meet Culgan in Kuskus, Culgan tells them that Jillia has wed Jowy, and thus, Jowy became king of Highland. Nanami replies: “Eh? Eh??? What!!! Jowy… is… married!!!” Classic! You’re awesome, Nanami! :lol:
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby yumsky » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:51 pm

I wasnt clear enough.. hahaha. Yes, I mean culgan after Jowy become King. So this is how it goes,

Original: 1. Luca 2. Han 3. Kiba 4. Solon

Solon beheaded, and then Jowy takes the 4th (1. Luca 2. Han 3. Kiba 4. Jowy)

Kiba defeated, Yuber was summoned by Leon (1. Luca 2. Han 3. Yuber 4. Jowy)

Luca is dead, Jowy became King (1. Jowy 2. Han 3. Yuber 4. Culgan-with Seed as 2nd in command)

Then Yuber flee in the last war battle, Han is defeated in the duel, then Culgan.

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby yumsky » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:54 pm

Wait2x, actually if the rank theory is true, then it makes perfect sense to switch Yuber to 4th because Culgan is in Highland more while Yuber is just a general for hire.

So Highland Army organize themselves as:
1. King
2. Han
3. Experienced (Kiba -> Culgan)
4. Less experienced (Solon -> Jowy -> Yuber)

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Vextor » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:13 pm

It seems Culgan does say he is the general of the 3rd army in the game, so that seems final.
However, some sources say he became the general of the 4th, so this is confusing.

General of the 4th changes quite often. It starts with Solon Ghee, and after that it goes under Rowd who becomes the "acting general of the 4th army" until Kiba defects (You see Rowd joining some battles until then but basically doing nothing). Later Jowy replaces Rowd briefly, but after he becomes King the 4th army goes to Seed (according to some sources but never stated in-game).
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Wolkendrache » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:14 pm

Thanks, so the final setup is Jowy, Han, Culgan, Seed.

However, Rowd following Solon sounds strange. I mean the former commander of the unicorn brigade suddenly ranking higher than Culgan and Seed (even though for only a short period of time). Wasn't Rowd just commanding reinforcements from the fourth army rather than being acting general of the whole fourth army? Where is it said he becomes "acting general of the 4th army"?
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby BrucePrintscreen » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:01 pm

Rowd was a sycophant of Luca so he may have favoured him over the other because he trusted him more. And actually, if he had been suspicious about Culgan and Seed, then he was right!

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Vextor » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:32 am

Wolkendrache wrote:Thanks, so the final setup is Jowy, Han, Culgan, Seed.

However, Rowd following Solon sounds strange. I mean the former commander of the unicorn brigade suddenly ranking higher than Culgan and Seed (even though for only a short period of time). Wasn't Rowd just commanding reinforcements from the fourth army rather than being acting general of the whole fourth army? Where is it said he becomes "acting general of the 4th army"?


In Sukogaiden Vol.1 Rowd is referred multiple times as "Acting general."

Also, I have not found any source that shows Seed was ever a general, so far.
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby BrucePrintscreen » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:13 am

This means that Culgan outranks Seed? Makes sense when you see their dialogue, Culgan seems to have the final word on what the duo does. However, I always saw them as equal partners rather than one being the assistant of the other.

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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Wolkendrache » Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:52 am

Vextor wrote:In Sukogaiden Vol.1 Rowd is referred multiple times as "Acting general."

Also, I have not found any source that shows Seed was ever a general, so far.

Thanks. As for Seed, gensopedia calls him „general“ and lists “Genso Suikoden Encyclopaedia” as source. Here on suikosource, it is said that “After Solon Jhee's execution, he was promoted to Vice-General after Culgan was promoted to general and after the defection of Kiba, he was promoted to general of the 3rd Army” (according to Blue Moon, no official sources listed). So suikosource has it the other way round with Seed as general of the 3rd and Culgan of the 4th. This contradicts to what is said in the game (Culgan introduces himself as general of the 3rd).
BrucePrintscreen wrote:This means that Culgan outranks Seed? Makes sense when you see their dialogue, Culgan seems to have the final word on what the duo does. However, I always saw them as equal partners rather than one being the assistant of the other.

It is possible that they shared the leadership of the 3rd. I don’t know whether one outranked the other, but in this case I’d say Culgan above Seed because of age/merits (the initial order Han – Kiba – Solon also matches their order of age). There are 2 indications for both leading 1 army together:
1. You almost always see them together. In other words, it would mean that 3rd and 4th armies are practically joined to 1 after Kiba defected. When Kiba was general, you rarely saw 3rd and 4th together (only once at the 2nd battle of the mercenary fort).
2. Maybe Yuber was a general. Otherwise, except for the scene with Shu and Leon, the battle at Greenhill would be the only battle where Highlands are commanded by none of their generals. I know, he could’ve just been a commander of some Highland troops, but a whole battle without any general is still an exception.
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Re: Highland Armies in S2

Postby Vextor » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:49 am

I just checked Genso Shinsho Vol 5, which includes a dozen or so pages about the Highland Kingdom. It clearly states there that the 3rd army went to Culgan after Kiba joins the Dunan Army, and the 4th army goes to Seed after Jowy becomes king. Also, a tidbit I wasn't aware is that the 2nd army is also called the "Army in Black" or "Black Garb Army" due to all soldiers wearing black armor or something.
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