True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Questions about the locations mentioned in the series; and those about the backstory not seen in the games.
User avatar
ItsDaveyJ
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:38 am

True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:39 am

It has been established that true runes cause the host to have some sort of negative side effect. The Soul Eater kills loved ones, the Rune of Beginning despite being separated into two components caused friends to fight each other, the Moon rune causes vampirism and madness, the Rune of Punishment causes the host to die, and the Sun Rune causes insanity. But what did the true runes of S3 cause? They seem exempt from this as the lightning, water, and fire runes caused no discernable issues. The wind and earth runes were held long enough by their hosts that they potentially mastered it and overcame any curse. It seems like an odd break from what has been established by the other games. Did they overlook it? Or is there no cursed stage for these runes? Or were the curses so minor that it isn't noticeable? Or did they just not have enough time with the runes to show us their curses as they lost them and ended the war pretty soon after obtaining them?

User avatar
Pyriel
Webmaster
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby Pyriel » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:56 pm

It's not unusual, but I don't think it's as much a pattern as you think. Detrimental effects are generally a result of the Rune's nature or function, and not really a curse for the sake of cursing. I'm not aware of the Dragon Rune, Sovereign Rune, or Gate Rune having any curses, aside from what's typically associated with living a long time and being particularly important, powerful, or well-known. The Circle Rune is the Rune of Stagnation, and it's caused Harmonia and Hikuusak to become stagnant. Not because it's a curse, but because that's what the Rune does. Likewise the Rune of Change caused the Sindar to be somewhat capricious and frequently nomadic.

That said, I did get the impression that the elemental Runes were sort of a lesser tier of True Runes. They don't seem to have as much influence, and the lesser aspects of their powers are almost mundane, what with basic elemental Runes available at every tool shop. They also seem less willful, as I think they're the only variety that Hikusaak managed to successfully coerce into a host. Although, I don't know if he attempted it with other Runes. Edit: Yeah, he tried and failed with the Beast Rune. The original writer conceived of Suikoden III to deal with all the elemental runes in one go, if memory serves, so he may have considered them less important.

User avatar
ItsDaveyJ
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:38 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:21 pm

Perhaps, but the issue with the Dragon Rune and the Gate Rune is that their hosts have held them for so long that they most likely have mastered the runes. Of course since the Dragon Rune changed hosts recently that might not be the case but as this is never shown in the game we cannot say whether or not there were any detrimental side-effects. The Sovereign Rune also could fall into this category as Barbarossa perhaps got it under control in the War of Succession and because it along with the Night Rune are embedded in a weapon.

And that is true about the Circle Rune and the Rune of Change. I theorize that perhaps when they settled down into their "Eternal City" was when the rune was mastered? Perhaps the Circle Rune hasn't been mastered by Hikuusak though that is difficult to believe considering how long he has held onto the rune. From my understanding, it seems like instances where things happen because "that's what the rune does" becomes controlled when the rune is mastered. The Rune of Punishment punishes hosts by draining their life... that's what it does and yet it can eventually be controlled. The Soul Eater devours the souls of loved ones but it seems like Tir has gotten it under control. The Rune of Beginning creates something new through conflict... but again it seems like it was able to be controlled so that the conflict didn't result in Jowy's death. So my point is that it seems like the basic function and "instinct" if you will, of the rune can be overcome. It just seems odd to me that the elemental runes seemingly have no instinct/desire/will like the other runes. Maybe because they are basic elements they don't really have a will? Their purpose and instinct is just to exist? Unlike say the Rune of Change that desires constant change and has to fight against order. If so then the hosts of those 5 runes must be pretty lucky compared to the rest.

User avatar
Pyriel
Webmaster
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby Pyriel » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:56 pm

Well, you're just assuming that there was ever a curse to holding those other Runes. As far as I know there's never been an official acknowledgment that Runes must carry a specific curse, and nowhere has it been written that the Dragon Rune causes you to break out in scaly boils, the Sovereign Rune causes you to unwittingly foment rebellion, and the bearer of the Gate Rune is occasionally startled from sleep when they realize Christopher Walken is hovering above them.

"Mastery" of the Runes seems a little dubious by itself. They're sentient, and while we clearly see that some Runes can be manipulated against their will, it's generally stated that they're only controlled if they allow it. The Rune of Punishment changes phases at least in part because it's punishment phase was satisfied, as I recall. The Soul Eater may have had its fill, or the developers just didn't see the need to add story to a bonus character, or maybe it fancies dessert, so it's waiting until Tir discovers the land of the Ice Cream Elves. Who knows. I think at best you can only use "mastered" as a synonym for "attuned" or "accustomed". In the hands of the right bearer, the Rune will eventually decide to cooperate and go along for the ride. If the bearer fights it, or just isn't suitable, it eventually consumes them somehow or abandons them.

It is stated that the Elemental Runes have the memories of former bearers, and they can share that with their current bearers. Other than that, you're right. They don't seem to have "personalities" or to drive the conflict directly. They are just alchemical-ish properties of nature, I guess, so it would be hard to invent a specific motivation for them. Except for an obvious tendency to war with its opposite, which would have been sort of repetitive had it been an obvious theme.

Hell, the Elemental Runes don't even seem to resist being passed around like tokens much. Although, I seem to recall a scene where someone tries to take one of the heroes' Runes, and it doesn't allow it. It's been a long time, so I might be mistaken. However, if there is such a scene, it demonstrates that the Elemental Runes are at least a little bit willful or selective about their bearers.

User avatar
ItsDaveyJ
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:38 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:26 pm

I make that assumption because all the true runes except in S3 show the rune bearer having to deal with some sort of negative side effect. If we had another example of someone acquiring a non-elemental true rune to see if they experience negative side effects would help prove or disprove it. For now, I'm basing my opinion on precedence set by the other games.

Now I made another thread discussing the memories issue but I still wonder if that is a characteristic unique to the elemental runes. I guess one could speculate that perhaps Luc's plan didn't succeed because his true rune's will was to survive.

And I believe the scene you are referring to is when Luck tries to take True Lightning from Geddoe. It resists Luck so he has to use the combined power of the True Wind Rune and the True Earth Rune. Which ties into my "survival" theory about the will of the elemental true runes.

User avatar
Pyriel
Webmaster
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby Pyriel » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:15 pm

ItsDaveyJ wrote:I make that assumption because all the true runes except in S3 show the rune bearer having to deal with some sort of negative side effect.
I think you mean all the True Runes carried by prominent characters, or something else. Right now, you have 5 True Runes (Earth, Fire, Lightning, Water, Wind) that don't seem to have a curse, and 5 (Soul Eater, Rune of the Beginning, Rune of Punishment, Sun Rune, Blue Moon Rune) or maybe about 8 (Circle, Change, and splitting the Rune of the Beginning if you care to) that are known to have something like a curse, depending on how you count. It's not exactly as overwhelming as you make it sound. Any assumption about Sovereign, Dragon, Gate, etc., imparting a curse is just conjecture, unless there's solid evidence lurking around somewhere. I'm not aware of any, so you'll have to await someone who's consumed every bit of minutiae in magazines and so forth, and even they may not be able to falsify or support your hypothesis.

User avatar
EstrangedIX
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:30 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby EstrangedIX » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:59 am

I don't really see the Rune of Punishment and Sun Rune as contributing to setting a precedent for a game that came before them, since we don't know if anyone had conceived of those Runes even existing while SIII was being developed. It's more likely that they just wanted to go back to a cursed Rune idea for the sake of the stories they were telling, rather than trying to express ways all True Runes might be cursed. If you consider just the Runes from the first two games, the cursed vs not cursed ratio is more balanced.
Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 - Break the ICE

User avatar
ItsDaveyJ
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:38 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:05 am

Let me give an example of how I view continuity... I tend to read some Marvel and DC comics and generally how they function is that any story published is considered canon unless retconned. So if one writer creates a story about Superman... and then 5 years later a different writer adds or subtracts from the lore/world/character/powers/etc then the newest version is considered canon until retconnwd. Take the Dark Phoenix story. Originally Jean Grey was corrupted by her own power and killed herself to save everyone. But then later they added to the mythos that it wasn't her own power that corrupted her but was an outside entity and that it wasn't the real Jean Grey who died. So despite the intentions of the original writer... you have to go along with whatever is newest as the truth. So in that line of thinking I consider the Rune of Punishment and the Sun Rune as contributing to the idea that true runes have curses.


Pyriel wrote:
ItsDaveyJ wrote:I make that assumption
because all the true runes except in S3 show the rune bearer having to deal with some sort of negative side effect.
I think you mean all the True Runes carried by prominent characters, or something else. Right now, you have 5 True Runes (Earth, Fire, Lightning, Water, Wind) that don't seem to have a curse, and 5 (Soul Eater, Rune of the Beginning, Rune of Punishment, Sun Rune, Blue Moon Rune) or maybe about 8 (Circle, Change, and splitting the Rune of the Beginning if you care to) that are known to have something like a curse, depending on how you count. It's not exactly as overwhelming as you make it sound. Any assumption about Sovereign, Dragon, Gate, etc., imparting a curse is just conjecture, unless there's solid evidence lurking around somewhere. I'm not aware of any, so you'll have to await someone who's consumed every bit of minutiae in magazines and so forth, and even they may not be able to falsify or support your hypothesis.


Yes I meant true rune bearers shown in game like you said. The thing that I would point out is that all the non-cursed runes we know for sure don't seem to have a curse are all from one game and are all elemental. While the others are from 4 different games and are more diverse. The rest is impossible to figure out like you say due to their off-screen presence.

User avatar
Pyriel
Webmaster
Posts: 926
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:20 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby Pyriel » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:52 pm

Well, there is a slight difference between new elements being added to a story, and actual retroactive continuity. I've never followed comics too closely, but just to invent an example, say Beta Ray Bill starts running around resurrecting the dead with his hammer, does that mean Mjolnir necessarily has the same power? Now, if Bill gets ahold of the original, and starts bringing people back, then the writers have to explain why Mjolnir can suddenly do that, or why Thor left half of New York dead, or some damn thing. Even if it's suspicious, the two hammers being constructed in much the same way from the same materials and all, it's not really a definitive chink in the tale. If someone in Suikoden IV or V had said, "all True Runes impart their own special curse", then, yeah, you have to wonder why the Elemental ones seemed so neutral, and what was happening or what had happened externally with the less prominent Runes. The Rune of Punishment doing what it does was always explained as exactly that, so I don't think you can assume that has strong implications for other Runes.

As an aside, using comic books as a model for making sense of a story seems quixotic to me. Every time I have to figure out what's going on in some Marvel movie or other I eventually end up on Wikipedia reading about how 15 different writers have gradually added to and refined every story until a synopsis reads like the diary of a schizophrenic.

User avatar
ItsDaveyJ
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:38 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:17 am

Point made. I still feel like 4 games of examples vs. 1 is enough to at least warrant me having this theory. But I'll be more than happy to change if I am ever given more evidence by the games.

And yeah... comic books can get quite convoluted but that is somewhat the same issue that Suikoden faces (hence why they kept trying to make those spin-off games). When you have a persistent world like Suikoden things can get pretty complicated.

Matthias
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:23 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:46 am

Contributing to and old topic, but I didn't see a few of these points made so I may as well make them now. :)

The Sun Rune wasn't always insane. It was only after the Night Rune broke away that the rune became unstable. And even still, so long as the bearer has the Dawn and Twilight runes, they'll be fine.

And the elemental runes do have a small aspect of a curse to them, namely, they can go out of control. Fire and Water runes, anyone? Of course, I think other runes have this aspect to them as well, but I can't think of any examples.

Dragon rune: If the rune doesn't have a bearer, all dragons die.

Sovereign rune: Corruption? I dunno too much.

Gate rune: Nosiness. :wink:

User avatar
veriaqa
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:34 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby veriaqa » Wed May 20, 2015 10:25 am

Red Sun Runes lacked any real curse in my opinion. Its only drawback can be negated by owning another two runes Red Dawn and Red Dusk. Compared to Dark Punishment or Souleating runes which the curse is only can be negated by completing some great task and/or trials.

The same also apply to all elemental true runes, they don't have any real curse.
I've came with an army who loves death like Yours loves live.

KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 5977
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:46 am

I think the True Wind Rune did have a personality and likely is the reason why Luc was never happy. Luc and Sasarai were both born with the rune, but only Luc was driven to do something based on the visions the True Wind Rune gave him. Sasarai is obviously a logical person, and if the True Earth Rune gave him similar visions about a stagnant world, he would at least have been able to understand Luc more when they met. I strongly believe True Wind Rune purposely forced visions of a bad future (considering there were infinite possibilities) so that Luc's sense of justice drove him to try to destroy himself, fail, and allow the Rune to escape.

User avatar
veriaqa
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:34 am

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby veriaqa » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:48 pm

I agree that true runes have their own personality. But what Tempest rune did to Luc is not a real curse. The rune only gave gim visions, nothing else. Luc decision to destroy the true runes was his own personal choice without the rune force him by the mean of any curse. It was because Luc's weak mind that the rune could drive him mad.
I've came with an army who loves death like Yours loves live.

Wolkendrache
Forum Moderator
Posts: 835
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 2:43 pm

Re: True Runes Cursed and Mastered Stages.

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:09 am

I’m viewing true runes as a symbol of man’s inability to handle great power. Similar to the Lord of the Rings, I guess the author wanted to give that message to the readers. I find the scene with Arshtat losing control the first time, and the scene with Galadriel losing control almost identical.

Of course the concept is not identical, only similar to a certain degree. In LotR, the power itself (the One ring) is created by evil, so using the power will cause evil. In Suikoden, true runes are not evil, but man’s inability to use power is manifested in the inevitable tragic consequences the true runes cause. Sometimes these consequences can be considered curses, hence the name cursed rune for the soul eater. The sovereign rune doesn’t harm the host in the first place, but the knowledge of being invincible to any form of magic seems to make its host forget about his responsibility as a nation leader. It’s just an interpretation, but at least you can say that Barbarossa was unable to use his power, and this had tragic consequences.

In LotR, only the One ring can cause huge destruction and no one is able to bear it without eventually giving in to the will of having that power. In Suikoden it seems the true runes with the power of destruction can’t be handled properly (hence the image of being cursed), while those without the destroying power can be controlled easier. Leknaat’s rune can only unsummon creatures, while Windy’s rune could summon creatures (creatures are summoned to destroy, so “unsummon” means destroying destruction). I think Windy wasn’t always bad, maybe it began when the gate rune was split into front and back. The dragon rune can summon and unsummon dragons (I guess), but maybe only the lives of the dragons depend on the rune, and not their individual personalities which would mean that the dragon rune doesn’t necessarily have destroying powers and can thus be controlled easier. It seems the beast rune is so destructive that it cannot be controlled and not even be attached at all, it can only be fed and released/summoned.

Finally, what is true for “curse” is also true for “personality” in that only one of them has a clear personality, others do only rarely show personality by either speaking through the host or by choosing its host / neglecting a potential one. I’ve always thought that true runes do not decide for themselves, but it’s “fate” that makes all decisions with the true runes and the SoD as its main tools. However, the fact that some runes have a personality kind of contradicts to that thought, even so not necessarily.

This was mostly speculation and opinion. These weren’t claims. Just trying to bring new points on the table as a basis for more discussion.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan


Return to “Geography/History/Rune Questions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests