how long true rune bearers can survive for when they lose...

Questions about the locations mentioned in the series; and those about the backstory not seen in the games.
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Wolf Kanno
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Re: how long true rune bearers can survive for when they los

Postby Wolf Kanno » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:21 pm

I was always under the impression that losing a True Rune naturally, would simply make the character start aging again normally. Like their personal clock just stops when you bear one and once it is gone, you just go back to normal, like Cray.

I say this, because if you think about it, no one in Suikoden III loses their True Rune naturally. The Flame Champion used a Sindar technique to forcibly remove his True Rune against it's will, which I was always given the impression was the true source for his short life afterwards. Sasarai and Geddoe also lost their True Runes by having them forcibly removed, I think this violent action is what really caused their health issues, not simply an adverse effect of not having their True Runes, and suddenly having rapid aging.

Ted passed on his True Rune twice in the coarse of the series, and doesn't seem to have any adverse affect for it, I mean his line about Windy "keeping him alive" could also simply reference that Ted was badly wounded by her before giving the rune to McDohl.
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Re: how long true rune bearers can survive for when they los

Postby eldrasidar » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:01 pm

Look and Luc and Sasarai. They both matured while possessing true runes, even though they've had those true runes their entire lives, so their true runes did not stop the growth and development of their bodies. Meanwhile Geddoe and Ted, who each held on to their runes for over 100 years, haven't apparently suffered any physical degradation, as might be expected. Ted and Geddoe also don't shrivel up into husks the moment they lose their runes, so it seems that the true runes they bear allow for continual cell regeneration(normally your body slowly and surely stops reproducing itself, which eventually leads to you dying).

I'm not sure what health issues you're referring to with regards to Geddoe and Sasarai after losing their runes. They both are obviously drained as a result of the violent removal as anyone would be after what is essentially a major surgery, but neither seems particularly worse off after having time to rest.

The Flame Champion likewise, doesn't seem to have suffered any major health reactions from removing his rune either. Yes, he died at some point later, but it doesn't say when. Presumably he lived a reasonably full length life filling up the majority of the 50 years between when he gave up the rune, and when Suikoden 3 happens living to be maybe 70-80 years in total. When Sana says he chose a short life with her, keep in mind that he chose between eternity and a normal lifespan, which is going to be by comparison extremely short, regardless of how long it actually is.

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Re: how long true rune bearers can survive for when they los

Postby Wolf Kanno » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:10 pm

eldrasidar wrote:Look and Luc and Sasarai. They both matured while possessing true runes, even though they've had those true runes their entire lives, so their true runes did not stop the growth and development of their bodies. Meanwhile Geddoe and Ted, who each held on to their runes for over 100 years, haven't apparently suffered any physical degradation, as might be expected. Ted and Geddoe also don't shrivel up into husks the moment they lose their runes, so it seems that the true runes they bear allow for continual cell regeneration(normally your body slowly and surely stops reproducing itself, which eventually leads to you dying).


It's difficult to know if the Runes work the same on Clones though, or if the process of giving them a rune is different from how you get a rune naturally. The other issue here is that Luc and Sasarai still appear to be teens/young 20 somethings, yet both of them are in their 30s by the Second Fire Bringer War. I wouldn't be surprised if their creator's simply did something to age them. Hell, it's only in the manga adaption we see either as babies and children, in the actual games, we don't know if either of them had a childhood or were simply composed and constructed to look 16-18 years old to begin with, yet it's pretty obvious considering that Luc and Sasarai have not changed much between 15 years in-between that the Agelessness part of their True Runes is working.

I'm not sure what health issues you're referring to with regards to Geddoe and Sasarai after losing their runes. They both are obviously drained as a result of the violent removal as anyone would be after what is essentially a major surgery, but neither seems particularly worse off after having time to rest.


Jeane comments to both Sasarai and Geddoe that if they don't get their true runes back they will die pretty soon, the manga adaption expands this further where it's noted that Sasarai has been getting quite a bit of treatment from both Jeane and Dr. Tuta to keep him going.

It seems some people thinks this means the Rune causes rapid aging if the person is long lived, but I'm simply suggesting the violent removal of the True Rune is the culprit and it can only be cured by having the Rune returned. Sasarai is the main reason for this theory, because he's only in his 30's, he shouldn't have to worry about death if the removal of his rune only makes you rapidily age to your correct age.

The Flame Champion likewise, doesn't seem to have suffered any major health reactions from removing his rune either. Yes, he died at some point later, but it doesn't say when. Presumably he lived a reasonably full length life filling up the majority of the 50 years between when he gave up the rune, and when Suikoden 3 happens living to be maybe 70-80 years in total. When Sana says he chose a short life with her, keep in mind that he chose between eternity and a normal lifespan, which is going to be by comparison extremely short, regardless of how long it actually is.
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I would argue the language of saying "he lived a short lifespan with Sana" implies he died rather young. I was always given the impression by this statement and a few others made by Sana and Geddoe that the Flame Champion only lived a few more years after removing his True Rune. I mean he did forcibly remove it from him, and unlike say the Rune of Punishment or Rune of Beginnings, it might not have been as easily persuaded to leave it's host, and it's removal may have had a violent effect on his body, that led to a shorter lifespan. I mean Sana seems to imply the Flame Champion died a long time ago, not a few years ago as if he just died from old age.
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Re: how long true rune bearers can survive for when they los

Postby eldrasidar » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:15 pm

Most of the details you're using are from the manga, which isn't canon, so you can't really use that for an argument. Plus you're using it to prove both sides of the argument, which just doesn't work at all.

The fact that they are clones shouldn't be an issue for Sasarai and Luc, since a clone still needs to be born and developed like any regular person, and given that in the game, Sasarai is actually shocked to discover he is a clone, one presumes he lived through a childhood as per normal, as did Luc.

I don't recall Jeane saying anything about Geddoe or Sasarai's health during the course of the game, so I've got to ignore that. The only in-game comment regarding to life span I can find is Luc saying Geddoe will die sooner rather than later, but Geddoe is in his late 30's/40's biologically anyway, so that's not entirely surprising.

I did find a single line that Geddoe says if he's the flame champion about the champion only living for a few more years afterwards, but that's not exactly a specific timetable, and of course he doesn't say when the flame champion got rid of the true rune so he may still have lived a reasonably length of time.

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Re: how long true rune bearers can survive for when they los

Postby Wolf Kanno » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:28 am

eldrasidar wrote:Most of the details you're using are from the manga, which isn't canon, so you can't really use that for an argument. Plus you're using it to prove both sides of the argument, which just doesn't work at all.


Though I agree that the game is canonical overall and trumps the manga, I don't necessarily feel that all information given in the manga is simply non-canonical. The novels for the first two games are considered canon, but both of them feature details that never made it into their games (Tir and Riou's names for one thing). The manga itself was also overlooked by Konami and the Suikoden team, so I would argue some details are not totally off base and were made up simply for the manga. Of anything the manga is an abridged version of the plot with only a few minor story changes but overall it's the same story.

The fact that they are clones shouldn't be an issue for Sasarai and Luc, since a clone still needs to be born and developed like any regular person, and given that in the game, Sasarai is actually shocked to discover he is a clone, one presumes he lived through a childhood as per normal, as did Luc.


I would argue we don't have enough information either way to say one way or the other. The reason I rejected the manga interpretation of their origins deals with the inconsistency of the "ageless" factor of bearing a True Rune. If Luc and Sasarai gained their runes when they were newborns and the runes grant agelessness, then the two of them should still be newborns in physical appearance. Granted, this wouldn't be the first time this feature of the runes caused inconsistencies in the series. The other issue is that Luc pretty much shows Sasarai what they are by showing a container filled with floating body parts within it. So for me, I don't feel the game offers much insight and the manga is inconsistent to some established rules in the canon.

I don't recall Jeane saying anything about Geddoe or Sasarai's health during the course of the game, so I've got to ignore that. The only in-game comment regarding to life span I can find is Luc saying Geddoe will die sooner rather than later, but Geddoe is in his late 30's/40's biologically anyway, so that's not entirely surprising.


See, to me that is just an odd line. I don't think it's a reference to "now your immorta0l, now you are not" I believe Luc is implying that the removal of the rune has shorten his life, much like what I have listed Geddoe mentioning about the Flame Champion below. Neither Luc or Geddoe talk about time in the concept of being people who live forever so I don't think either of them throw around words like "a few more years" or "he'll die sooner than later" as if they are some immortal god kings, rather they are stating it at face value.

I did find a single line that Geddoe says if he's the flame champion about the champion only living for a few more years afterwards, but that's not exactly a specific timetable, and of course he doesn't say when the flame champion got rid of the true rune so he may still have lived a reasonably length of time.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here, the line I'm thinking of for Geddoe is when he says this if he becomes the FC:
Geddoe: "When the True Rune bearer loses the rune, he suffers greatly and pays
a high price...You traded that mighty power for mortal life. You abandoned
everything in order to share with your loved ones the little time that was
left. I am jealous of you. Very much so. And now..."


Later, when FC Geddoe faces Luc and sees the Absolute World, this is part of Geddoe's verbal bitch slap to Luc:

Geddoe: "A mature person would choose a life with loved ones over worldly
battles and faraway futures. If you don't grasp this, you need to grow up!
You have a huge price to pay for abandoning your duty as a rune-bearer. When
FC did that, the power's backlash caused him such intense pain and exhaustion
that he only lasted a few more years.
But he stood by his choice. The most
important reason for living was to be with his loved one, a mortal. A few
quality years with her were better than an eternity in misery."


So Geddoe pretty much states he only lived a few more years after removing the rune, and while it is true we don't know how long after the Fire Bringer War it was when he removed it, I can't really see him waiting until Sana started to seriously age before removing it. Technically, the FC may have only learn after removing his rune that it would accidentally cause him to have a shorter lifespan, so there is no reason to believe he didn't remove the True Rune a little after the truce was signed. Considering the use of "little time left" that Geddoe uses in the first quote, I would say he pretty much confirms the FC may have only lived a few more years after the procedure.
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Re: how long true rune bearers can survive for when they los

Postby Vextor » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:08 am

gilgamesh31 wrote:Hmmm :? It does sound a bit fishy. Does anyone know if its official stated that he lost his rune for a few years during his wandering?


This is indeed the case. Konami has officially stated this in Genso Shinsyo Vol.2 (Published in 2000), as a response to a question asked by a fan where they are asked "How did Ted grow up since he gained his true rune despite the fact that True Runes stop aging?" Konami's answer was that Ted lost his rune for a certain amount of time, and during that time he aged normally. This answer came directly from the development team at KCE Tokyo... so what gives?

The problem here is that the above was the "official information" back in 2000. It is very much possible that Konami forgot / decided to change the setting for Suikoden IV, which was released on 2004. It can be argued that Ted "losing the rune and aging" was a separate event from his captivity in the Fog Ship. In fact, one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that time doesn't progress within the Fog Ship. The Fog Ship Captain says something to the effect that Ted was able to survive without the rune because he stayed on the ship where time doesn't progress. It's very possible that Konami is themselves confused about the plot and setting of their own game.
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