Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

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KFCrispy
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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby KFCrispy » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:09 pm

They turned against their commander, country and queen for a new ruler.


not exactly.. while they didn't protect the Queen and Ferid, it was Georg who killed the Queen and the Queen who killed Ferid. seems like the royal family's a little messed up, eh? immediately after their deaths, Gizel was the new unofficial Commander since he was set to wed Lymsleia.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby Mystical » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:45 pm

KFCrispy wrote:
They turned against their commander, country and queen for a new ruler.


not exactly.. while they didn't protect the Queen and Ferid, it was Georg who killed the Queen and the Queen who killed Ferid. seems like the royal family's a little messed up, eh? immediately after their deaths, Gizel was the new unofficial Commander since he was set to wed Lymsleia.

Very true. Still, my point was at the whole attack/plot by the Godwins.

Godwins drugged the guards, brought in soldiers and Nether Gate troops to steal the throne. Zahhak and Alenia were very supportive of that.
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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby creativerealms » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:40 am

I believe it is quite possible that Alenia's first loyaty was always to the Godwins. Yes she was a Queens Knight but a newer one, one who got the position sometime after the battle with Armes. I don't think it is out of the question that she was always loyal to the Godwins first and was placed in the Queens knights for that reason. Now I know Ferid probably would look into this, of course her father being a loyal gqueen's knight probably helped here.

Yeah there is nothing in the game that say that her first loyalty was always to the Godwins but it's possible.

Zahhak on the other hand is different. He always showed his loyalty to be for the queen and the queendom, more then the other knights. He even hated the idea of being allowed to speak his mind about the country.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby EternalOnslaught » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:53 pm

It's pretty obvious why Alenia sided with the Godwins, she was a fangirl of Godwin politics.

As for Zahhak, his reason is a bit more secretive, perhaps he thought the way Godwin would rule Sol-Felena would be the best idea and probably thought that the current ruler at the time the queen wasn't exactly the best ruler. I believe his reason was a lot deeper than Alenia.

In his mind he might've thought that Sol-Felena would blossom as a militaty power(he was a queens knight afterall, more military power, the better for him?) Even though he respected Ferid, his kindness was a weakness, on the other hand Gizel Godwin, didn't really show any kindness.

Why exactly was Galleon on their side at first? He was a lot wiser than Zahhak and Alenia.

I saw Alenia as a foolish girl, who was too wrapped up in her fantasies with the Godwins, which blinded her from the truth.
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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby Twelve » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:07 pm

EternalOnslaught wrote:It's pretty obvious why Alenia sided with the Godwins, she was a fangirl of Godwin politics.

As for Zahhak, his reason is a bit more secretive, perhaps he thought the way Godwin would rule Sol-Felena would be the best idea and probably thought that the current ruler at the time the queen wasn't exactly the best ruler. I believe his reason was a lot deeper than Alenia.

In his mind he might've thought that Sol-Felena would blossom as a militaty power(he was a queens knight afterall, more military power, the better for him?) Even though he respected Ferid, his kindness was a weakness, on the other hand Gizel Godwin, didn't really show any kindness.

Why exactly was Galleon on their side at first? He was a lot wiser than Zahhak and Alenia.

I saw Alenia as a foolish girl, who was too wrapped up in her fantasies with the Godwins, which blinded her from the truth.


I disagree with the comment regarding Gizel's lack of kindness. Although he was manipulative, he always acted with calm and reason. He never hurt Lym physically when she showed him attitude; he coerced her primarily through verbal threats. Even after multiple failures from his generals, he didn't order their executions (compare Gizel to a man like Luca Blight). Most of the dirty work was done by the people he hired...I'm not certain if that makes him a coward or frees him of blame, but his character and motivations are a lot deeper than the bloodthirsty killing machines in Nether Gate.

As for Galleon's allegiance, I believe he was siding with Lym rather than the Godwins. He probably had to participate in the war and do Godwin's bidding so that he could watch over Lym and make certain she was safe.

At any rate, can you blame any of them for wanting to dethrone Arshtat? She was mentally unstable because of the Sun Rune, and she had broke tradition by marrying a foreigner of low rank. People like Alenia and the Godwins may rightfully feared that the break in tradition might threaten their culture and strength as a nation.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby creativerealms » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:29 pm

Twelve wrote:
At any rate, can you blame any of them for wanting to dethrone Arshtat? She was mentally unstable because of the Sun Rune, and she had broke tradition by marrying a foreigner of low rank. People like Alenia and the Godwins may rightfully feared that the break in tradition might threaten their culture and strength as a nation.


True. Only for the Godwins it was more the foreigner of low rank thing then what the Sun rune was doing to her. The Godwin family believed that the Sun Rune's power should have been used even more then it was. It seems that most queens used the sun rune far more often to maintain power. Also I remember one part in the game where it was said that the Godwins would have wanted judgement like that on Lordlake to happen more often.
Last edited by creativerealms on Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby son_michael » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:10 pm

the only reason Arshtat even bore the rune was because of the Godwins...there the ones that believe using the Sun rune is a must so there's no wya Alenia and or Zahak would want her out of power for that sole reason



Alenia and Zahak were always very clear about there "oppinions on political matters" in the beggining of the game, they were Supporters of Godwins philosophy and against the barrows philosophy....at the time the Queen was using the sun rune which was exactly what Alenia and Zahak believed in



The entire game until the Sun Palace is attacked Arshtat did everything Alenia and Zahak could have hoped for, if you wanna be TECHNICAL then no they didn't Technically kill her but TECHNICALLY they were serving the Gizel and his plan was to killt he queen...so technically there guilty of siding with the queens enemy while the queen was still alive....since they both knew the sun palace was going to be attacked by Gizel


still going to say they arent traitors to Arshtat? it is 100% apparent that they believed Godwin should have been the ruler of Falena and as such they joined him and planned to kill the queen and manipulate her daughter....all in the name of a Godwin ruled Falena



how can anyone possibly defend the actions they took?

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:10 pm

Galleon also came from Lordlake, so while he was very just, he may have had a personal grudge against Arshtat... but anyway, Galleon and Miakis witnessed Georg killing her. Considering Georg was extremely new, it is possible he was the one who led the attack. We can tell that Miakis was utterly confused about the whole situation... from a bystander's perspective, the Godwins may have just taken advantage of Georg and the Prince's attack with their hired assassins.....

i think the omniscient perspective really skews your idea of why the characters side with the Godwins. Miakis clearly shows she thought Georg was trying to kill the Queen, and perhaps she thought the Godwins rightfully took control after the attack since no one else left in the palace was capable.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby son_michael » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:39 am

I dont think your talking specifically to me but neverther less here I go



KFCrispy wrote:Galleon also came from Lordlake, so while he was very just, he may have had a personal grudge against Arshtat...


I would say Galleon was very loyal to Arshtat, he tried desperatley to save her and he apologizes for being unable to fullfil his duty....he also makes it clear to the prince that he has put Lord lake behind him

but anyway, Galleon and Miakis witnessed Georg killing her. Considering Georg was extremely new, it is possible he was the one who led the attack.


Galleon knew that Georg killed the queen in order to save Falena, Galleon saw the whole thing...Miakis only saw the sword through the queen. Miaki's probably believed Georg was with the Godwins but she knew that the entire attack was lead by the Godwins{evidence would be how all the soldiers and queens knights were prepared to defend the castle....so obviously arshtat and ferid informed them all that the Godwins were going to attack}

We can tell that Miakis was utterly confused about the whole situation... from a bystander's perspective, the Godwins may have just taken advantage of Georg and the Prince's attack with their hired assassins.....


again... Miaki's was informed by the queen that the Godwins were going to attack the palace. however if you mean"from a bystanders perspective" as some ordinary citizen thats reading the news..then yeah some foolish citizen could easily say Godwins tried to help the queen but failed to do so and the prince and Georg got away

i think the omniscient perspective really skews your idea of why the characters side with the Godwins. Miakis clearly shows she thought Georg was trying to kill the Queen, and perhaps she thought the Godwins rightfully took control after the attack since no one else left in the palace was capable.


Miakis knew the Godwins were the queens enemy, EVERYBODY knew this when the Godwins were about to attack the sun palace secretly....in Miaki's mind Georg was the enemy but the Godwins were clearly the enemies of Arshtat

the only reason Miaki's joined the Godwins was because

1. she first did it so she could protect Lym

2. when Gizel told her that he's supposed to protect Lym she fell in despair and thought to herself"the only good thing I have left in my life is being a queens knight.." and she was very confused and distraught so she thought her duty at that time was to fight against the prince


in anycase while she was serving Lymslea and the Godwins..she hated them and Georg for the belief that they all killed the queen and especially the godwins for using Lymsliea

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:24 am

ah yes.. it wasn't a very secret attack :P

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby sunstar25 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:39 pm

I'm pretty sure Miakis hated every minute of being a Godwin puppet. It was an emotional moment for both Miakis and Frey to fight each other. If one killed the other, neither one could ever live with it and Lym would never forgive them. Frey's intention was to knock some sense into Miakis so she can have the chance to help the Prince save Lym.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby creativerealms » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:55 am

I'm sure this was brought up already but I was just reading the castle newspaper and the report on Zahhak does clear some things up as to why he joined the Godwins. One Being that he is a Godwin or at least related to that, and that he was chosen by them for the Queens Knights.

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Re: Loyalty(MEGA MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Postby Heptade » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:57 am

I'm mostly playing the devil's advocate, but I'd say there's more to Zahhak than him being a simple traitor. As said before, he has blood ties to the Godwins. He also wins points from me when he tells Alenia to shut up about semantics when she calls Frey a traitor. Despite his frequent speeches on the importance of duty, he knows that what he does is hardly lawful. But he feels that he's doing what's right. And he's not 100% wrong. (I'm not saying he's 100% right, either, mind you.)

Truth is, Arshtat, by the end of her life, was totally unfit to be queen, and a walking time bomb who could (and almost did) literally destroy her own country on a whim. Who's worse? The Nazi who might kill some dwarves and beavers? Or the lunatic who might kill ALL humans and elves and dwarves and beavers and dragons and even the one single sentient turtle? Yeah, I know the Godwins were pretty much responsible for Arshtat's declining sanity, but the fact remains: she had to die, and there was no way around it. Had she lived, she would likely have become the game's main antagonist at some point.

Zahhak's dilemma, though much less developed, is perhaps quite comparable to Jaime Lannister's, for those who have read A Song of Ice and Fire: at the same time a choice between duty to one's (thoroughly unsympathetic) family and royal law, and a choice between duty and survival. Was Jaime's stabbing of Aerys unlawful? Totally. Was it wrong? I wouldn't say so.

Yeah, Zahhak is still a douchebag, as he does seem to agree with Marscal's ideals, and the way he always stresses the importance of duty is quite hypocritical, but, from the way I interpret them, his motives for betraying the queen are quite understandable nonetheless.

Sorry for resurrecting so many dead topics...


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