Gay Characters

Ask questions about the personality and backstory of the multitude of characters in the Suikoden series.
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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:56 am

Eh I think that statistic is pretty inaccurate. I'd say that a number around 3-5% is more accurate. But I have no data to back that up.

But I don't mind stereotypical characters as long as they are treated with respect. The entire point of having gay characters is to show diversity... so its important to show a diverse cast of gay people. Some can be stereotypical... others shouldn't. I don't think its fair to necessarily dismiss a stereotypical character as being a detriment to representation of gays because it isn't fair to the gays who are stereotypical. Really what it comes down to though is... treat them like every other character in the series. Don't make them act or not act a certain way because of their sexuality... make it because of their personality. That's my opinion about it at least. Nothing wrong with an amazonian lesbian or a gay bear type as long as they are well developed.

Hmm I only see it for a few of those. Hanna if we are stereotyping. Gremio possibly. Milich possibly. Aldo most likely. And Leilei most likely. The rest don't really have enough information to deduce. Though I think Salome mentions his attraction to Chris in game... but he could be bi I guess if you want to make that argument but there is no evidence to support it. I would also contend with Joey being gay. I mean yeah you could say that he married Jillia as a power move but hmm... hard to say. I personally like him with Nanami anyways. Though I wouldn't feel surprised if he was with Riou or another man.

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wataru14
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby wataru14 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:15 am

ItsDaveyJ wrote:Eh I think that statistic is pretty inaccurate. I'd say that a number around 3-5% is more accurate. But I have no data to back that up.


It's a study that will probably never have an accurate number because of cultural biases. Many people deny who they are and won't give truly honest answers. 10% is the most often used statistic, so I just used it as a hypothetical. Even if we use your estimate, that would still be 15-25 characters.

ItsDaveyJ wrote:But I don't mind stereotypical characters as long as they are treated with respect ... I don't think its fair to necessarily dismiss a stereotypical character as being a detriment to representation of gays because it isn't fair to the gays who are stereotypical.


I disagree. Stereotypes are inherently disrespectful. They are charicatures. If the goal is to show diversity, it is lazy to rely on stereotypes. Suppose in a hypothetical Suikoden VI there is a character names Ching Chong Chow who serves as your butler. He wears a Raiden-style hat, has big buck teeth, and speaks in Pidgin English. "Me rikey serve-a you massa. A numba one! You eat-a up good chow now. Yum Yum!" Would that be an acceptable characterization? I don't want to see something like that that's gay cousin show up. Sometimes the Narcissists dance a little to close to that line for me, but they are based more on foppish aristocrats than gays. Are there any video games where LGBT characters are treated respectfully? I was very happy when I heard Dragon Age Origins had canonically LGBT characters, but then I saw how they were handled and I threw my hands up in frustration at the wasted opportunity.

ItsDaveyJ wrote:Really what it comes down to though is... treat them like every other character in the series. Don't make them act or not act a certain way because of their sexuality... make it because of their personality. That's my opinion about it at least. Nothing wrong with an amazonian lesbian or a gay bear type as long as they are well developed.


Exactly. Gay is a personality trait, not someone's entire being. I'm just worried that if the series ever did continue and we finally got a gay character that the developers would waste the opportunity to do something poignant and classy and give us Big Gay Al from South Park.

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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:23 pm

wataru14 wrote:
I disagree. Stereotypes are inherently disrespectful. They are charicatures. If the goal is to show diversity, it is lazy to rely on stereotypes. Suppose in a hypothetical Suikoden VI there is a character names Ching Chong Chow who serves as your butler. He wears a Raiden-style hat, has big buck teeth, and speaks in Pidgin English. "Me rikey serve-a you massa. A numba one! You eat-a up good chow now. Yum Yum!" Would that be an acceptable characterization? I don't want to see something like that that's gay cousin show up. Sometimes the Narcissists dance a little to close to that line for me, but they are based more on foppish aristocrats than gays. Are there any video games where LGBT characters are treated respectfully? I was very happy when I heard Dragon Age Origins had canonically LGBT characters, but then I saw how they were handled and I threw my hands up in frustration at the wasted opportunity.


You are using extreme examples. Take a more measured approach to stereotypes. Let's say for example... that a gay character has a lisp. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. It is a stereotype that gay men talk like that but we shouldn't make gay people who do talk like that feel like they are less of a person than those who do not. Or take a masculine lesbian with a short haircut and likes playing softball. Just because something is close to a stereotype doesn't mean there isn't a valuable story to be told. And just because it is a stereotype doesn't mean it has to be offensive. It's important to remember that as the community strives to change public perception that they don't invalidate and demean those who do not fit the mold of how certain people think gay people "should be." Instead of focusing on the "should be" focus on "how they are." This also applies to the opposite. There are positive stereotypes too. When I say positive stereotypes I mean that it is a stereotype and therefore isn't necessarily true but it isn't an insult. Example: Asians are smart and good at school or gay men all have fantastic in-shape bodies. For the purpose of defying stereotypes... should we make all asian characters not intelligent and make all the gay men out of shape?

Side note: Big Gay Al is a satire. He is MEANT to act stereotypically as a social commentary. Therefore I do not find it offensive. Perhaps it is not to your tastes in terms of your sense of humor... but I wouldn't say it is offensive because of the shows comedic style and equally harsh treatment to all groups of people.

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wataru14
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby wataru14 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:06 pm

ItsDaveyJ wrote:Take a more measured approach to stereotypes. And just because it is a stereotype doesn't mean it has to be offensive.


It seems we have a fundamental disagreement here. I have a problem with every word in these two sentences. I doubt any further discussion is going to get beyond the basic dissonance of that point.

ItsDaveyJ wrote:It's important to remember that as the community strives to change public perception that they don't invalidate and demean those who do not fit the mold of how certain people think gay people "should be." Instead of focusing on the "should be" focus on "how they are."


Speaking from my own experiences, people expect the lisp and the super fashion sense and the feather boas. And I've only ever met a tiny handful of people of are that way. In general people judge you when you don't fit that mold, and most of the gay men I know do not fit it. I know I don't fit it. I get a lot of people who say to me, "Wow, I never would have guessed that you were gay! You don't act it at all." And I find that statement horrifyingly offensive. I work with mostly women. If I go out to dinner with my co-workers and one posts a picture of us on Facebook with the caption "Dinner with the girls" it makes me upset. And then they will say, "Why? I thought YOU PEOPLE always called yourselves that." They don't mean anything homophobic by that statement, but that's what comes from always falling back on the stereotypes. They get reinforced. It's harder to overcome cognitive dissonance than it is to not allow it to build in the first place.

ItsDaveyJ wrote:For the purpose of defying stereotypes... should we make all asian characters not intelligent and make all the gay men out of shape?


Most of the gay men I know are very out of shape ... or extremely skinny and scrawny. I don't think I know a single one with a gym body. :lol: What I'm saying is, if you are trying to show diversity in a community, you should show that diversity. If you have one Asian character, don't make them a super nerd Otaku because that is what people will expect. If you are going to have one gay character, base him off Ian McKellen and not Liberace. If you are going to have multiple gay characters, then show diversity by all means. Be inclusive as you can be and show the whole rainbow. But if you only have one shot and one character, don't fall back on preconceptions. If for no other reason than it's lazy writing.

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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:37 pm

wataru14 wrote:
It seems we have a fundamental disagreement here. I have a problem with every word in these two sentences. I doubt any further discussion is going to get beyond the basic dissonance of that point.

Speaking from my own experiences, people expect the lisp and the super fashion sense and the feather boas. And I've only ever met a tiny handful of people of are that way. In general people judge you when you don't fit that mold, and most of the gay men I know do not fit it. I know I don't fit it. I get a lot of people who say to me, "Wow, I never would have guessed that you were gay! You don't act it at all." And I find that statement horrifyingly offensive. I work with mostly women. If I go out to dinner with my co-workers and one posts a picture of us on Facebook with the caption "Dinner with the girls" it makes me upset. And then they will say, "Why? I thought YOU PEOPLE always called yourselves that." They don't mean anything homophobic by that statement, but that's what comes from always falling back on the stereotypes. They get reinforced. It's harder to overcome cognitive dissonance than it is to not allow it to build in the first place.

Most of the gay men I know are very out of shape ... or extremely skinny and scrawny. I don't think I know a single one with a gym body. :lol: What I'm saying is, if you are trying to show diversity in a community, you should show that diversity. If you have one Asian character, don't make them a super nerd Otaku because that is what people will expect. If you are going to have one gay character, base him off Ian McKellen and not Liberace. If you are going to have multiple gay characters, then show diversity by all means. Be inclusive as you can be and show the whole rainbow. But if you only have one shot and one character, don't fall back on preconceptions. If for no other reason than it's lazy writing.



Fine by me. But I will say that we can clearly define the word stereotype and nowhere in that definition does it include a requirement for it to be offensive. It's a widely held but oversimplified image... not necessarily an offensive oversimplified image.

And my entire point is that much like how you don't like people assuming these things and belittling your character and making you feel demeaned for not acting in a particular prescribed notion of how a gay man must act... gay people who do fit that mold wouldn't like hearing from their fellow gay men that they aren't as worthy of depiction and therefore are less than other gay men. It's a cycle of resentment and discrimination. Art reflects reality and so when more artists meet more kinds of gay people their art will reflect that. And these artists will meet all sorts of gay people... stereotypical or not. So instead of feeling like you have to compete for representation... worry more about being represented with respect and dignity. After all, when it is inevitably your turn to be represented... isn't that how you hope you would be represented?

For example, I am racially mixed but I am part Indian (India kind xD). Would I like to see more variety than a taxi-cab driver or a poor and downtrodden Indian man? Yes. But I don't think that because I want to see more variety means that those kinds of characters need to stop appearing or appear less. As long as the creative piece they are in represents them well then why should I be upset? Me wanting to see an Indian who isn't a cab driver doesn't change the fact that there are Indian cab drivers. Can you imagine how different Slumdog Millionaire would have been had the main character not been poor? Basically what I am saying is that the story is the first and the utmost important thing. If the story is better served by having some stereotypes fulfilled then go right ahead!

Now to tie this into Suikoden again so we aren't off-topic... Suikoden has the unique position of having a HUGE cast of characters to work with in each game. Because of this, they can really represent a wide variety of types of gay people. So especially in the Suikoden series I would like to see all kinds of gay people... stereotypical or not.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby sticky-runes » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:38 pm

What's all this talk of Gay characters in Suikoden??? A butch, manly man's game set in a magical world inhabited by fairies and prancing holly creatures, and elves that dress up in all the colors of the rainbow and attack people by singing songs at them? A game that lets us travel the world recruiting burly warriors who we get to go shopping with and take baths together, and a rugged heavily built man with scruffy hair gets called a "bear"? You think there are LGBT characters living in such a world? I should slap each and every one of you on the wrist for suggesting such an outlandish thing.

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BrucePrintscreen
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby BrucePrintscreen » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:27 am

Anyone can be gay or straight until proven otherwise, it's called Shrodinger's cat's sexual orientation.

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bluemask
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby bluemask » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:36 am

sticky-runes wrote:What's all this talk of Gay characters in Suikoden??? A butch, manly man's game set in a magical world inhabited by fairies and prancing holly creatures, and elves that dress up in all the colors of the rainbow and attack people by singing songs at them? A game that lets us travel the world recruiting burly warriors who we get to go shopping with and take baths together, and a rugged heavily built man with scruffy hair gets called a "bear"? You think there are LGBT characters living in such a world? I should slap each and every one of you on the wrist for suggesting such an outlandish thing.

My goodness... I don't even. I think Alma Kinan has les-- I don't want to start on this.. :roll:

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Re: Gay Characters

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:48 am

BrucePrintscreen wrote:Anyone can be gay or straight until proven otherwise, it's called Shrodinger's cat's sexual orientation.

Using Schrödinger, every character is straight and gay at the same time until proven otherwise. And bi.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby sticky-runes » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:59 am

I think Georg Prime likes men.

zhek
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby zhek » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:25 pm

So i made this account just to provide this input. Warning light spoilers for suikoden 2.

If you complete the game and get the "good" ending, during the final sequence i believe kinnison and ayda are revealed to be lesbians. There will be a short scene with the two female archers and shiro, observing the five flying squirrels dancing around Siegfried the unicorn. During this scene adya approaches very near kinnison and appears to physically surprise her. I believe it is a kiss. Also the notes that scroll by revealing the future of each star of destiny mention that kinnison returns to her forest with shiro, but goes on to mention she often visits ayda's forest.

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Pyriel
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby Pyriel » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:06 am

A little known fact is that if you get Ayda, Feather, all the squids, and all the squirrels by finding them around Greenhill (including Mukumuku) there's a secret scene where Kinnison's parents go to the media with pictures of his Y chromosome, and later he steps down as president of his local GLAAD chapter amidst allegations of cultural appropriation.

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AlOnZo
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby AlOnZo » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:39 am

zhek wrote:...often visits ayda's forest.


Oh my. :roll:

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BrucePrintscreen
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby BrucePrintscreen » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:22 am

Ayda is a boy so actually Kinnison is a straight girl.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Gay Characters

Postby sticky-runes » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:50 pm

The woman in Rikon who says she was searching for Liukan is actually the homophobic mother of Esmeralda who wanted Liukan's help in curing her son of his "confused" lifestyle and putting on drag shows at the inn in Antei.


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