Why 27 true runes???

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
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Chaco
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:12 pm

the tarot thing was proposed in the past. unfortunately i don't know much about tarot or anything and just went by the simple keywords that are used to describe each arcana.


I don't even know what an Arcana is lol. It was a decent idea but as Lovecraft elder said it may simply be coincidence.
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Mio
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Mio » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:36 am

play the Persona 3 ps2 game

it revolves around arcana and the tarot cards

each arcana has an embodiment/character ingame which aids in understanding each arcana

cool huh??

so even though i played through persona 3, i don't fully understand arcana (i thing singular is arcanum, pardon the grammar)

and most replies so far has no clear cut explanation to the reason why the number '27'

<_<

i'm inclining to believe the Tarot theory

it's more likely until a better explanation come along

just to clear it all up, the arcana also have a 'balance' factor

example: The Magician - symbolizes immaturity (making mistakes) but also leaves much potential to be better

The Magician Arcana is the first of the Tarot Cards

so you would likely compare it with the Rune of Beginning

how you do that, sadly i do not know

:D

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Chaco
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:07 pm

I wonder if the game writers actually have an idea of what is going to happen at the end of Suikoden, or if they are doing it as they go along. I think a mix of both, like they seem to know what Jeane is but they are making up other stuff as they go, such as using certain races because thye are popular ones.
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Iesous » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:39 am

27=3x3x3

3 is a very significant number in western Judeo-Christian society. 3 sections to the Hebrew scriptures (Law, Prophets, Writings; or Torah, Nebi'im, Kethubim; thus TaNaKh); 3 days in the belly of the fish for Jonah; death-3 days-resurrection of Jesus; Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

I don't know if Eastern thought places any importance on the number 3. Maybe someone else knows more.

Or maybe, its just a nice number to the power of the same number. For example 2^2, or 3^3, or 4^4. If you take these examples, 3-cubed is the only one that makes sense. It would be boring to have only 4 true runes (2-squared) but completely absurd and exhausting to come up with 256 True Runes (4x4x4x4). [They probably wouldn't be able to come up with the last one since 255 is usually the highest number when it comes to programming ;-) ]

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Mio
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Mio » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:04 am

or it maybe really is associated with the Tarot Cards...

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Iesous » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:43 pm

There's no good reason why the runes should be associated with tarot cards. Maybe a couple of the runes coincide with some of the cards, but if you try hard enough, you can make them coincide with alot of different systems. Instead of trying way too hard to make it fit, operate by Ockam's Razr: the simplest solution is the best.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby JanusThePaladin » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:17 pm

Iesous wrote:27=3x3x3

3 is a very significant number in western Judeo-Christian society. 3 sections to the Hebrew scriptures (Law, Prophets, Writings; or Torah, Nebi'im, Kethubim; thus TaNaKh); 3 days in the belly of the fish for Jonah; death-3 days-resurrection of Jesus; Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

I don't know if Eastern thought places any importance on the number 3. Maybe someone else knows more.

Or maybe, its just a nice number to the power of the same number. For example 2^2, or 3^3, or 4^4. If you take these examples, 3-cubed is the only one that makes sense. It would be boring to have only 4 true runes (2-squared) but completely absurd and exhausting to come up with 256 True Runes (4x4x4x4). [They probably wouldn't be able to come up with the last one since 255 is usually the highest number when it comes to programming ;-) ]


The number 3 is predominent in the majority of Religions. You listed off the significance in Judeo-Christian mythology, but also the number three is worshipped by the Wican. It also figures throughout Sumarian mythology and other ancient religions. Anyone who has ever taken a college writing course could tell you about the power of the number 3.

I totally agree on this, its pretty obvious that 27 is 3 to the third power, and as RPG writers are, in effect, story tellers, it is not farfetched to believe this was a factor in the choosing of the number.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:58 am

There's no good reason why the runes should be associated with tarot cards. Maybe a couple of the runes coincide with some of the cards, but if you try hard enough, you can make them coincide with alot of different systems. Instead of trying way too hard to make it fit, operate by Ockam's Razr: the simplest solution is the best.


That is NOT ockam's razr actually said! It said you should always try the simplest solution FIRST not that it was the best option, however, that said I do agree with you that anything can be associated with many other things if you try hard enough. I think that 27 was a number they decided on simply because they thought it was a good number to use.

Another option is that there are actually more than 27 True Runes, and that everybody thus far who thinks there are 27 are wrong. It has never really been proven that there are only 27, except that a bunch of books and old guys say there are (and leknaat who isn't 100% accurate either)
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Iesous » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:20 pm

When multiple competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

-From Wikipedia

Occam's razor is not talking about the order you would select hypotheses for testing. It is talking about weighing the two or more hypotheses against each other after you have done all possible testing.

'Best' does not mean '100% correct'. It simply means that it is 'the most preferred' explanation.

The Tarot card explanation may indeed be correct. But based on the current evidence, it is a very cumbersome theory. The 3-cubed theory also, explains all the relevant data, but it has fewer assumptions. Therefore, based on Occam's Razor, it should be more preferred. It may end up being wrong, but until more evidence come's to light that it can't explain, it should be preferred.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:06 pm

Really, unless someone from Konami came and said "This is why we have 27 True Runes...." we can only speculate what the reason might be, I am willing to accept any logically sound hypothesis. As it were, I like the idea of it being a random numer they choose, I like the tarot idea because the supporters of said idea have provided a lot of good evidence, however, I am not saying that was 100% why they picked 27 either. :?

So basically, I was wondering if anyone have any other ideas as to why there are 27?
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby JanusThePaladin » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:01 am

Can i redirect you to my post since you obviously didnt read it?

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Chaco
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:04 pm

No need to be sarcastic that's not what I meant, other ideas other than those that have been presented thus far.
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby WichitaQ » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:00 pm

it was probably said, but 108 stars of destiny divided by 4 is 27. i doubt that's a coincidence.
and every rune has 4 levels too.

i don't think that "why 27 true runes" should be the question. "what's the number 4 in the 108/4=27 equation?" maybe...

sounds logical if we ignore the fact that i have no idea what does number 4 represent.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Flufflez » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:29 am

i like the idea of the tarot card theory, so i put together where i think the runes would go. a lot of them actually fit pretty well, but it's the runes that don't fit in that make me feel like this theory isn't plausible. this is based on the descriptions of the runes provided here and the descriptions of the tarot cards from wikipedia. some of the remaining cards make it seem like it would be very hard to create a rune for, so it's hard to speculate what would actually be next if this were accurate. also, something like the sun rune works for the sun card, but it might be better placed as the empress or maybe even the star.



----------------------------------------True Earth Rune
----------------------------------------True Fire Rune
----------------------------------------True Lightning Rune
----------------------------------------True Water Rune
----------------------------------------True Wind Rune
None (0 or 22) The Fool
1 The Magician
2 The High Priestess------------------Gate Rune
3 The Empress
4 The Emperor-------------------------Dragon Rune
5 The Hierophant----------------------Circle Rune
6 The Lovers
7 The Chariot-------------------------Sovereign Rune
8 or 11 Justice
9 The Hermit
10 Wheel of Fortune---------------------Rune of Change
11 or 8 Strength / Fortitude
12 The Hanged Man-----------------------Rune of Punishment
13 Death--------------------------------Night Rune
14 Temperance---------------------------Rune of the Beginning
15 The Devil----------------------------Beast Rune
16 The Tower----------------------------Eightfold Rune
17 The Star
18 The Moon-----------------------------Blue Moon Rune
19 The Sun------------------------------Sun Rune
20 Judgment-----------------------------Soul Eater
21 The World

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LadyMikain
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby LadyMikain » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:18 pm

but isnt there 27 runes? and only 22 tarots so it couldnt really work anyway :?
I don't regret the decision I made that day. Even now. But...my heart still aches. I..I want to follow my heart. Whether it is right or wrong will be judged by history.-Pahn. Suikoden.


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