Why 27 true runes???

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
suiko2fan2
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Why 27 true runes???

Postby suiko2fan2 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:28 pm

I saw on another thread that the reason why we have 27 true runes is because it comes from the 5 elementals and the 22 symbolism of Tarot cards. Though it wasn't really addressed in this way, maybe it has already been, but correct me if i am wrong.

However how that carries over into the suikoworld can be a little iffy. Here's what i mean. Ever suiko game talks a lot about balance. Particularly, between order and chaos. Which is all good and fine maintaining an even balance, but how could their be balance with an odd number of true runes. In that if the world was made from sword and shield fighting and the 27 jewels adorning them became the 27 TR and set the world in motion. (as the myth goes) would it not make more sense if Sword and Shield both had 13 or 14 each (making 26 or 28) in order to have that perfect balance of chaos/order. if one had more than the other would that unbalance things as it were. I mean 27 TR seems odd for keeping a harmony is all i am saying.

My theory is that sword and shield each had 13 jewels each, and maybe the rune of beginning is product leftover of the battle, implying all that symbolism and meaning crap left over from creation.

which may explain the the Bright shield and Black sword are normally seperate..helping keep an even balance..what do you guys think? or am i just crazy about the uneven balance thing
I will establish one mighty nation in this land... a single, powerful nation, born of force and wielding force... that's the one and only way of freeing this land from war.

Unleashing True Runes
https://youtu.be/Q7Ry1WmNMNg

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patapi
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby patapi » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:31 am

They did talk about balance of order and chaos in the series, but where was it officially mentioned that the individual True Runes are supposed to belong exclusively to either of those sides?

Even if this speculation holds, it is more likely that the "odd one out" lies with the elements featured in Suikoden III. See, minus the 5 elemental True Runes, we have an even number of 22 to be distributed equally, if we must do so.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:34 pm

there are definitely multiple meanings of balance, and balance doesn't necessarily come in groups of 2. the 5 elemental runes balance each other out, the Dawn and Twilight Runes help balance the Sun Rune, etc.
But if you think about it, the 22 remaining runes can have a 1-to-1 balance relationship.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:50 am

Maybe it was a random number Konami decided on!
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Michael Easton » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:13 pm

The 27 True Runes are probably based on something taken from an ancient culture.

My Crazy Made-Up-On-The-Spot Theory

There were only supposed to be 4 Suikoden games because...

27 (True Runes) x 4 (Suikoden Games) = 108 (Stars Of Destiny)

Maybe it was a random number Konami decided on!


Could just be this, though.

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby suiko2fan2 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:00 pm

I was thinking more about it. Perhaps it does not matter how many TR there our..by this i mean an even or odd number 27 or 28...whatever...perhaps each rune in of it self represents both sides of the balance of order and chaos. a few each being

Souleater is life and death
punishment atonement and forgiveness
beast- rage and passion
Sun- gives warm lively rays or destructive sunbeams
T. water- heals and ice dmg
etcc...

..thus no matter how many TR exist they all have this dual nature about them that can be exploited by the ones bearing them for either chaos or order.

just my thoughts
I will establish one mighty nation in this land... a single, powerful nation, born of force and wielding force... that's the one and only way of freeing this land from war.

Unleashing True Runes
https://youtu.be/Q7Ry1WmNMNg

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby maha_gnosis » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:09 pm

I always think that Suikoden is based on Chinese Myths/Buddhism .

If that's the case, the number 27 may come from 108 (the sacred number)/4, or...
It's the number of Buddhas who have attained enlightment before Sidharta Gautama.

The reason is :
in Buddhism, after someone reachs the enlightment, they will be part of the world...
It's kinda like, to be a rain.

In Suikoden, true runes do have some ego, minds, and control an aspects of the world.

Maybe in future Suikoden, we will see a character become a true rune (hence : being the 28th True Rune, the Gautama Buddha)
^^;

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:59 am

Maybe in future Suikoden, we will see a character become a true rune (hence : being the 28th True Rune, the Gautama Buddha)
^^;


Whoa, that would be a twist. Your reply does seem to make sence though, it's a good idea :)

I hop ethat when the 27th true rune is revealed it doesn't end Suikoden, as long as it doesn't end Suikoden when that happens I couldn't care how many Runes there are.
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Lovecraft_elder » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:34 am

The most True Runes we know of have dual aspects.
The Rune of Beginning is Sword and Shield - offense and defense
The Blue Moon Rune turns its bearer into a vampire, yet the bearer hunts other vampires
The Rune of Life and Death (Soul Eater) is life and death
The Punishment Rune is forgiveness and atonement
The Beast Rune is animalistic rage and passion
The Fire Rune is warmth, yet it burns
The Water Rune is cleansing healing, yet it damages
The Gate Rune - also split in two - symbolize each side of the gate
The Sun Rune nutures and toasts whoever cross it
And so on...

We have never been told that the True Runes add up to balance. Each time a True Rune has been given to our heroes, a certain someone has shown her self - Leknaat - the overseer of balance. She instructs the bearers of True Runes, so they can help keeping the balance. I think that the True Runes are chaotic if their bearers use them unwisely (or they use their bearers in a chaotic way, making some of the True Runes chaotic), or the bearer might use them with wisdom, adding to the balance.

Oh, and "balance" is equality between chaos and cosmos.
Dunno if I make any sense.
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:52 pm

We have never been told that the True Runes add up to balance. Each time a True Rune has been given to our heroes, a certain someone has shown her self - Leknaat - the overseer of balance. She instructs the bearers of True Runes, so they can help keeping the balance. I think that the True Runes are chaotic if their bearers use them unwisely (or they use their bearers in a chaotic way, making some of the True Runes chaotic), or the bearer might use them with wisdom, adding to the balance.

Oh, and "balance" is equality between chaos and cosmos.
Dunno if I make any sense.


You make sence to me!! I understand, your saying she wants them to keep the balance using the runes, like not doing what Luc did and try to kill everyone but also using the runes power to do whatever it is they are trying to do. :wink:

One thing I see though, Leknaat almost seems to want the war, she almost seems to encourage the use of the True Runes in war. She helped Jowy Blight at the same time she was helping Riou. I sometimes wonder if Jowy's decition to continue the war after Lcua Blight died was because of Leknaat's influence. :idea:
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby KFCrispy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:59 pm

we haven't had this topic in a while... i wonder where the existing runes fit
tarotteachings.com: tarot card meanings of the 22 major arcana:
0-Fool (Innocence, Beginning, Simplicity, Fresh Start, Blind Faith) - Rune of Beginning
1-Magician (Power, Action, Awareness, Application, Resourcefulness)
2-Priestess (Knowing, Psychic, Oracle, Secretive, Influential)
3-Empress (Promise, Femininity, Abundance, Creativity, Assurance)
4-Emperor (Strategy, Rulership, Authority, Masculinity, Practicality) - Sovereign??
5-Hierophant (Law, Holy, Respect, Ceremony, Knowledge, Tradition, Conformity) - Circle Rune
6-Lovers (Sex, Love, Health, Union, Trust, Passion, Temptation, Vulnerability, Communication) - Beast Rune
7-Chariot (Tact, Skill, Action, Control, Focused, Driven, Motion, Balance, Physicality)
8-Strength (Balance, Strength, Courage, Patience, Compassion, Understanding)
9-Hermit (Wisdom, Humility, Solitude, Searching, Detachment, Deliberate, Observation)
10-Wheel (Luck, Chance, Change, Destiny, Revolution, Consequence) - Rune of Change
11-Justice (Truth, Balance, Justice, Equality, Congruence, Admission, Examination, Accountability) - Rune of Punishment
12-Hanged Man (Yield, Suspend, Surrender, Sacrifice, Non-Action, Submission, In-Between)
13-Death (Change, Exposure, Transition, Termination, Inevitability) - Soul Eater?
14-Temperance (Merging, Balance, Healing, Blending, Connection, Chemistry, Fluidity, Moderation)
15-Devil (Ego, Loss, Error, Addiction, Illusion, Disruption, Enslavement) - hmmm, Eight-Fold?
16-Tower (Change, Eruption, Upheaval, Exposure, Cataclysm, Blind-sided, Sudden Shift) - Rune of Change?
17-Star (Hope, Promise, Healing, Guidance, Cleansing, Assurance, Ascencion, Rejuvination) - Night?
18-Moon (Cycles, Emotion, Intensity, Reflection, Confusion, Influence, Emergence, Perplexity) - "Blue" Moon Rune
19-Sun (Life, Energy, Growth, Clarity, Vibrancy, Understanding, Illumination, New Beginings, Breaking Through) - Sun Rune
20-Judgment (Faith, Honesty, Judgment, Resurrection, Transformation, Heeding a Call) - Soul Eater, Rune of Punishment???? makes more sense for Soul Eater
21-World (Value, Success, Achievement, Fulfillment, Enrichment, Satisfaction) - Gate Rune?

no idea what something like the Dragon Rune would match in the tarot world

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:32 pm

no idea what something like the Dragon Rune would match in the tarot world


1-Magician (Power, Action, Awareness, Application, Resourcefulness)
2-Priestess (Knowing, Psychic, Oracle, Secretive, Influential)
3-Empress (Promise, Femininity, Abundance, Creativity, Assurance)
7-Chariot (Tact, Skill, Action, Control, Focused, Driven, Motion, Balance, Physicality)
8-Strength (Balance, Strength, Courage, Patience, Compassion, Understanding)
9-Hermit (Wisdom, Humility, Solitude, Searching, Detachment, Deliberate, Observation)
12-Hanged Man (Yield, Suspend, Surrender, Sacrifice, Non-Action, Submission, In-Between)
14-Temperance (Merging, Balance, Healing, Blending, Connection, Chemistry, Fluidity, Moderation)

Maybe 9 Hermit? Or Maybe 2?
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Lovecraft_elder » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:40 am

I doubt that the True Runes have anything to do with the Tarots.
I believe that the fact that the tartot cards somehow add up to 27 is a mere coincidence, just as the 27x4-thing.

Tarot cards are used to foretell your everyday life, and, as far as I'm concerned, they have absolutely nothing to do with balance, what so ever.
Most of the cards have dual meanings, and few of them match any of the True Runes. I think it could be more interesting to take a look into the original "Suikoden books."
As far as I know, each True Rune represents a certain power and, together these powers create the fabric of reality. Tarot cards have nothing to do with creating a reality or anything like that.

Oh, and by the way. 27 isn't really an odd number when trying to reach balance, is it? I mean, you can have 13 on the "chaos" side, 13 on the "cosmos" side, and then the 14th Rune could be "balance."
"Everytime you try to drag real life physics into a fantasy setting, God kills a catgirl!" - Please, think of the catgirls!

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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby Chaco » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:03 am

doubt that the True Runes have anything to do with the Tarots.
I believe that the fact that the tartot cards somehow add up to 27 is a mere coincidence, just as the 27x4-thing.

Tarot cards are used to foretell your everyday life, and, as far as I'm concerned, they have absolutely nothing to do with balance, what so ever.
Most of the cards have dual meanings, and few of them match any of the True Runes. I think it could be more interesting to take a look into the original "Suikoden books."
As far as I know, each True Rune represents a certain power and, together these powers create the fabric of reality. Tarot cards have nothing to do with creating a reality or anything like that.

Oh, and by the way. 27 isn't really an odd number when trying to reach balance, is it? I mean, you can have 13 on the "chaos" side, 13 on the "cosmos" side, and then the 14th Rune could be "balance."
I doubt that the True Runes have anything to do with the Tarots.
I believe that the fact that the tartot cards somehow add up to 27 is a mere coincidence, just as the 27x4-thing.

Tarot cards are used to foretell your everyday life, and, as far as I'm concerned, they have absolutely nothing to do with balance, what so ever.
Most of the cards have dual meanings, and few of them match any of the True Runes. I think it could be more interesting to take a look into the original "Suikoden books."
As far as I know, each True Rune represents a certain power and, together these powers create the fabric of reality. Tarot cards have nothing to do with creating a reality or anything like that.

Oh, and by the way. 27 isn't really an odd number when trying to reach balance, is it? I mean, you can have 13 on the "chaos" side, 13 on the "cosmos" side, and then the 14th Rune could be "balance."


I don't really agree or disagree with any of the ideas so far, but I like to take them all into consideration. I have never actually seen a tarrot card before either, but it was a good idea none the less.

Also in referance to the balance thing, I think when Leknaat says balance she doesn't eman balance within the runes but balance witht he rune holder. If the person who has a true rune pulls a Luc and trys to destroy everyone that's distrubing balance but not using the runes power would be just as bad. That's what I think she meant by balance not that the 27 true runes balance each other out becuse since there is 27 they CANT it's impossible since it's an odd number.
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Re: Why 27 true runes???

Postby KFCrispy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:45 am

the tarot thing was proposed in the past. unfortunately i don't know much about tarot or anything and just went by the simple keywords that are used to describe each arcana.


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