Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:42 am

I like the best ending the most but I do have one problem with it...

Riou and Jowy obviously want to end the violence and fought to establish peace. Why would they keep their runes separated so that their war would be repeated later on? I would think that Jowy, once recovered, would be insistent that one of them bear the entirety of the Rune of Beginning so that history won't repeat itself. I just can't see them letting the rune go back to the shrine in Toto and letting two more friends fight each other once more.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby wataru14 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:55 am

That won't happen because Riou successfully gathered the 108 Stars. The Rune's power to end war won't activate because it hasn't been rejoined, but the curse is lifted for as long as Riou and Jowy bear the pieces. Every time the 108 Stars successfully gather in the games, they seal the curse of a True Rune and allow the characters to find their own destiny.

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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:35 pm

wataru14 wrote:That won't happen because Riou successfully gathered the 108 Stars. The Rune's power to end war won't activate because it hasn't been rejoined, but the curse is lifted for as long as Riou and Jowy bear the pieces. Every time the 108 Stars successfully gather in the games, they seal the curse of a True Rune and allow the characters to find their own destiny.

But he can still gather the 108 stars and take over the entire Rune of Beginning if you so choose.

It seems like the "natural" way for the curse to end is that the two runes combine and form the Rune of Beginning and ends the conflict of the friends fighting each other.
The way it happened in Suikoden 2 seemed more like Riou's will was so strong that the runes succumbed to their will.
To me it seems like two different ways to the same end. Both end the conflict and both end the curse of friends fighting against each other. The only issue was that Jowy was so weak that he couldn't give up his rune at the time. But if he recovers his strength... could he give it up later?

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby wataru14 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:56 pm

[quote="ItsDaveyJ"But he can still gather the 108 stars and take over the entire Rune of Beginning if you so choose.[/quote]

True, but in the "best ending" he does not do that.

It is possible that Jowy gave up his Rune later, but I don't think that would cause the Rune of Beginning to form since Riou did not win it by conflict. The way Leknaat described the Rune, it seems to me that you have to forcibly take both pieces. Being handed one doesn't cut it. In Ending B, Jowy was dying from wounds inflicted on him by Riou (if you beat him in the duel) or had just been defeated by Riou, so that would satisfy the Rune's curse. In the best ending, though, you are correct in saying Riou's will and his desire not to fight Jowy (along with the 108 Stars), subjugated the Runes.

It is entirely possible that Riou and Jowy followed Han and Genkaku's example and sealed the Runes again. The game does not show them being used in the epilogue.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:32 pm

wataru14 wrote:[quote="ItsDaveyJ"But he can still gather the 108 stars and take over the entire Rune of Beginning if you so choose.


True, but in the "best ending" he does not do that.

It is possible that Jowy gave up his Rune later, but I don't think that would cause the Rune of Beginning to form since Riou did not win it by conflict. The way Leknaat described the Rune, it seems to me that you have to forcibly take both pieces. Being handed one doesn't cut it. In Ending B, Jowy was dying from wounds inflicted on him by Riou (if you beat him in the duel) or had just been defeated by Riou, so that would satisfy the Rune's curse. In the best ending, though, you are correct in saying Riou's will and his desire not to fight Jowy (along with the 108 Stars), subjugated the Runes.

It is entirely possible that Riou and Jowy followed Han and Genkaku's example and sealed the Runes again. The game does not show them being used in the epilogue.[/quote]
Good point about it perhaps being a requirement to form only by conflict. But really... it's all just conjecture. I just can't see someone like Jowy who was so driven to end conflict be willing to let the runes go back to how they were and let another conflict occur. Riou and Nanami I could totally see as willing to let that happen... but not Jowy.

To be honest though... part of me has always wanted the final Suikoden game to be a big huge war where all the 27 true rune bearers come into play and they are all from the previous games we have played. It would be odd to not see Riou and Freyjadour not present. So maybe that is partially why it doesn't sit well with me.

And yes, I have always thought of Suikoden as a series that should have a definite end and have a "final" game. I always hoped the direction the series would go in was a collection of epics (each game) to form one giant epic (the series as a whole). But hey, I'd always be happy to have more Suikoden to play.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Poet » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:18 am

Shymirror wrote:The idea of Riou, Nanami and Jowy living happily ever after is a dream come true to them. But it just doesn't apply to any realistic outcome to a war the magnitude of the one that takes place in the game. Despite the fact that Jowy 'meant well', he still gave Luca Blight a winning advantage for a time, even if it was deception. I can't accept that Riou would ever be best friends forever with Jowy again after he chose a path that ran concurrent to the Stars of Destiny. What Konami should have done was allow the Nanami reveal if you shouted quickly enough, and leave the Jowy thing completely optional.

As it is, the ending that makes the most sense to me is the one with Jowy accepting his defeat and heralding the tragic victory of his best friend. So, my question is: Does anyone else who gets the best ending feel like it leaves a bad taste in your mouth? Like too much suffering has happened for them to still be friends?


I don't quite like suikoden 2's best ending too but i don't agree with your idea.In war what matters is the outcome and minimizing deaths which jowy did,luca's only winning advantage was muse and it was actually a great thing.The alliance formed by muse was weak,not cooperative and have to be broken down for a new nation to rise.In a sense the victory against highland began with the fall of muse.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby bluemask » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:00 am

ItsDaveyJ wrote:And yes, I have always thought of Suikoden as a series that should have a definite end and have a "final" game. I always hoped the direction the series would go in was a collection of epics (each game) to form one giant epic (the series as a whole). But hey, I'd always be happy to have more Suikoden to play.


As long as it's not Dissidia-ish, I think that would be great? LOL. (Sorry for bringing that up :P). I think a game where there is still this typical hero-108 stars story, then meets every other True Rune bearers would be a good idea. Though that would be totally massive...

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby suiken » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:43 pm

bluemask wrote:
ItsDaveyJ wrote:And yes, I have always thought of Suikoden as a series that should have a definite end and have a "final" game. I always hoped the direction the series would go in was a collection of epics (each game) to form one giant epic (the series as a whole). But hey, I'd always be happy to have more Suikoden to play.


As long as it's not Dissidia-ish, I think that would be great? LOL. (Sorry for bringing that up :P). I think a game where there is still this typical hero-108 stars story, then meets every other True Rune bearers would be a good idea. Though that would be totally massive...


That would not bode well for those who doesn't have true runes (Riou and Freyjadour) unless it's a fantasy match up like Super Robot Wars and Dissidia.

I prefer having a cameo instead. Like Castlevania did with Fake Trevor, Grant and Sypha, I want a boss fights where the bosses impersonate the previous Suikoden heroes and their runes. That would be awesome story wise and gameplay wise.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby cws » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:07 am

I agree with what Shymirror said about ending of suikoden 2, for me, this is what should happen in Suikoden 2 real ending:

Since after Riou and Jowy join Dunan liberation army, after Jowy assasinate lady Annabelle and went to highland, time after time Jowy ask Riou to quit leardership of Dunan army, even after Riou manage to defeat Luca Blight, Jowy keep telling Riou to surrender to Highland. After Riou manage to lead Dunan liberation army to peace, when Riou went to Tenzan Pass to see Jowy, supposedly Riou should question Jowy about his action and teach Jowy a lesson about his betrayal since Riou treated Jowy as his best friends yet Jowy did actions that betray him. In suikoden 2, Riou has been shown as a character that was too naive and easy forgiving. Due to this, Jowy manage to exploit Riou naiveness and easy forgiving for his own advantages. A true leader should not be like that .For me, the best ending should be like this: Riou questions Jowy about his betray on city-state, beat him, accept his black sword rune and complete rune of beginning, return to Dunan and become Dunan nation leader, return to Kyaro and found Nanami, expose Nanami action in front of Dunan people about her action of repeatdly asking him to give up on his fight, put Jowy in prison and tell him that he need to spend the rest of his life on prison for his crime, tell pilika about how uncle Jowy that she care the most are actually the same person that collaborate with Luca Blight, enemy that killed her parents caused dissater they faced, ask why she act as a mute girl for so long and why she speak after meeting with Jowy on Muse and punish her for her action of does not speak for so long and sometimes almost caused them problems

I have joined a Suikoden Facebook group that are opened by Indonesian yet when I posted things such as saying Nanami are
stupid characters and things that are not up to their favourite such as Jowy deserve a lesson after what his actions of betrayal have done, I was being criticized for my post.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby sticky-runes » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:37 am

cws wrote:For me, the best ending should be like this: Riou questions Jowy about his betray on city-state, beat him, accept his black sword rune and complete rune of beginning, return to Dunan and become Dunan nation leader, return to Kyaro and found Nanami, expose Nanami action in front of Dunan people about her action of repeatdly asking him to give up on his fight, put Jowy in prison and tell him that he need to spend the rest of his life on prison for his crime, tell pilika about how uncle Jowy that she care the most are actually the same person that collaborate with Luca Blight, enemy that killed her parents caused dissater they faced, ask why she act as a mute girl for so long and why she speak after meeting with Jowy on Muse and punish her for her action of does not speak for so long and sometimes almost caused them problems

I have joined a Suikoden Facebook group that are opened by Indonesian yet when I posted things such as saying Nanami are
stupid characters and things that are not up to their favourite such as Jowy deserve a lesson after what his actions of betrayal have done, I was being criticized for my post.


You're entitled to your opinion of the characters, but I think punishing Nanami and Pilika seems a bit extreme. Nanami annoyed the hell out of me at times, but I can understand her not wanting Riou and Jowy to kill eachother, the three shared a bond that was ultimately put to the test when this war came between them, and Nanami chose friendship over loyalty to a nation.
Pilika didn't see Jowy as a traitor, she saw him as the boy she rescued from the river and the uncle cared for her after her parents died. Both girls were not professional soldiers, they just went on instinct and intuition, and they both represented a part of the boy's lives that Riou and Jowy were fighting for personally.
I don't think there's any need to punish Pilika for not talking, it's not like she would have had any useful information to give in regards to war strategies.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby BrucePrintscreen » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:19 am

cws wrote: Riou questions Jowy about his betray on city-state


Jowy is not from the City-State, therefore he is not betraying it. If anything, it's Riou who betrays Highland.

cws wrote:expose Nanami action in front of Dunan people about her action of repeatdly asking him to give up on his fight


After what the people of Dunan will be horrified at Riou's lack of feelings for his own sister. Actually, it would be a very good premise for a sequel: Riou proves to be a tyran for Dunan who organises a public trial of his own sister who saved his life and stood by him even when she wanted out of the war and only did her best, provoking the rise of a new rebellion and 108 stars to overthrow him and save her from her abusive brother.

cws wrote:tell pilika about how uncle Jowy that she care the most are actually the same person that collaborate with Luca Blight, enemy that killed her parents caused dissater they faced, ask why she act as a mute girl for so long and why she speak after meeting with Jowy on Muse and punish her for her action of does not speak for so long and sometimes almost caused them problems


Please never have children. Ever.

cws wrote:I have joined a Suikoden Facebook group that are opened by Indonesian yet when I posted things such as saying Nanami are
stupid characters and things that are not up to their favourite such as Jowy deserve a lesson after what his actions of betrayal have done, I was being criticized for my post.


Perhaps you were not criticized for having an opinion on a twenty year old videogames, but created a lot of discomfort in front of the values and feelings (or lack thereof) that you so bluntly display. The fact that you react so harshly to the fate of characters, on top of that fictional, is really disturbing.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby cws » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:36 am

About Suikoden 2 ending, honestly this ending kind off too naive. I agree with what Fevergrease said. After Riou success in leading Dunan Liberation Army to peace, supposedly he lead them to new age. The problem with the good ending is it shows Riou naiveness towards Jowy. Riou thinks Jowy as his best friend yet Jowy keep harming Riou by telling him to give up and just like Fevergrease said, Jowy is a character that who manipulated and killed for his goals. To him, the end justified the means and he threw away human lives for the goal of peace. Very hypocritical and evil. EVERYONE should be responsible for their own actions no matter their intention, and justice should be applied to both friend and foe at the cost of personal happiness for the good of all society. Yet there are still people that still think Jowy deserve to live? I does not hate Jowy but I think Jowy need to take action for his consequences. After Jowy killed Lady Annabelle and deflect to Highland, he does not show any sense of shame in his action, instead he still thinking his actions are right and he repeatly telling Riou to abandon his fight. Riou treat Jowy as his best friend yet Jowy treat Riou as a tool that can be expended any time. The true ending should be like this: Riou beat Jowy, eventhough he let Jowy to live but Riou takes Jowy's Black Sword Rune and complete Rune of Beginning with his Bright Shield Rune. Bring him back to Dunan Castle, expose Jowy's crime and punish Jowy by putting him inside jail for a specific time so that Jowy can reflect on his crime and Riou can show that nobody is exceptional from any crimes that they commited. As for Nanami, she also need to be punished for her action throughout the whole game where she repeatly tell Riou to give up on his fight, her stupid dialogues and her naiveness. She also need to be put into jail just like Jowy for her actions. Riou will lead Dunan to glory and he and Ellie become lovers since Ellie has a crush on Riou.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby cws » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:40 am

I really hope that if Suikoden 2 are being remaked, issues such as Riou characteristics of naiveness and hard to decide can be changed to a character that can made decisions dececively, Riou and Eille become lovers at the end of Suikoden 2, Nanami does not keep forcing herself into the party, Nanami being punished for her repeatly action of telling Riou to give up on his fight, her stupid dialogues, Jowy being punished for his actions, Pilika knowing that her beloved uncle Jowy is actually colaborating with killer that killed her parents, Riou leading Dunan

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby sticky-runes » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:00 am

You seem to be obsessed with punishing Nanami when all she did was try to stop two people she loved from waging war and killing each other. That's not exactly a crime against humanity. I'm not a big fan of Nanami - I found her forcing herself into the party annoying from a game player's perspective - but even I think you're being too harsh on her.

If you do end up agreeing with Nanami and running away during Tinto and letting Ridley die, then that's your failure as a leader, not Nanami's fault. And if you choose not to run away, then she still remains loyal to you. she even makes the decision to leave the army (assuming she survives Rockaxe) when she realizes that her presence is becoming a risk to Riou's role as a leader.

And you seriously think Pilika needs to be punished? Has she not already suffered enough? We're talking about a 5 year old girl who heard her parents being butchered in their living room while her entire village burned to the ground, then got dragged from war zone to war zone by a group of strangers, and you want to inflict further cruelty on her?
Last edited by sticky-runes on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:36 pm

cws wrote:The problem with the good ending is it shows Riou naiveness towards Jowy.

The best ending shows the power of their friendship, their triumph over the will of a true rune. You’re completely ignoring the fact that they bear true runes that force them to fight each other to the death. If you feel better, you can kill Jowy in their duel, but you gain nothing from it, instead losing your battle against the will of the rune, and you will lose your best friend who in contrast finally won his battle against the rune (because he didn’t attack his best friend).
cws wrote:Riou will lead Dunan to glory and he and Ellie become lovers since Ellie has a crush on Riou.

Riou ended the war and restored peace, so he already gained the greatest glory a Suikoden hero can gain, and he already initiated a new era. What do you mean by “Riou will lead Dunan to glory”? Declaring war on Toran and Harmonia and conquering the northern continent? Dunan doesn’t want this “glory”, it wants peace which is already achieved for now. And if Riou really turns into the tyrann you offer, if he punishes his most loyal fellows, then kindhearted Eilie would dump him on the very same day anyway.
cws wrote:I really hope that if Suikoden 2 are being remaked, issues such as Riou characteristics of naiveness and hard to decide can be changed to a character that can made decisions dececively, Riou and Eille become lovers at the end of Suikoden 2, Nanami does not keep forcing herself into the party, Nanami being punished for her repeatly action of telling Riou to give up on his fight, her stupid dialogues, Jowy being punished for his actions, Pilika knowing that her beloved uncle Jowy is actually colaborating with killer that killed her parents, Riou leading Dunan

You can have it easier: just make Luca Blight your playable hero, he’s a decisive leader, without Nanami on his side, he’ll punish everyone at will (even 5 year-old girls), he’ll unify Dunan and then try to lead it to a new age of glory.
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