Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

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Chaco
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Chaco » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:57 pm

It's like this, there was one of two things that could of happened.

1- Riou kills Jowy, receves the True Rune and gains immortality then goes on to leading the Dunan Army to many victories and such afterwords. Nanami would be all alone in Kyroe, most likely never seeing her brother again however she would live a normal peaceful life. This ending would be more beneficial to the country of Dunan but less beneficial for thoese who want a "Happy Ending" and much less benefcial to Nanami, Jowy and Riou. This ending however allows players who dislike Jowy a chance to kill him. It also gives the player to take the country they have been fighitng so hard for and become leader of it. Also leaving Jopwy alive would leave a trace of Highland alive which is bad if you want to totally destroy Highland. Jowy chose the path and he should finish walking it.

2- Riou chosses to let Jowy live, Leknaat heals him and he, Riou and Nanami all go off on a journey. This ending leaves the gamer feeling happy and content after seeing the events leading up to this sappy ending and also give Riou a better, but much shorter life. Still I feel this ending works because I don't think Riou would want to live ageless forever, and the point that Grandpa Genkaku chosse to abandon the war and live a peaceful life in Kyroe with Riou and Nanami rather then keep fighting should say something to. Also the "Bad" ending follows the theme of Betrayal, Death and Dismay which kind of sucks after working so hard to make a peaceful land the whole damn time don't you think? I mean it's more satisfing to see the good ending after beating the game then this one.

There, the advangtages of both endings. Oh yes, I would chose the good ending because I for one think Jowy Blight is one of my favorite Suikoden Characters other then Chaco, Luc and Sierra.
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Paler than Moon » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:19 am

Well I just played Suikoden II again (and almost finished it, hasn't even been a week ^^) and I always love the perfect ending.

It's like, Riou lost so many things, he lost his hometown, his sister, his best friend, and I just want him to be happy in the end, so the perfect ending is very sweet.

I don't think a Riou who become a leader of a new country would be happier than a Riou who get back his sister and best friend.

Much like Tir, Riou's only a boy. Eileen said it "a boy wouldn't want to sit in an airless room and being called 'President' all day."

Oh, and the three of them are supposed to "see the world" right? If I was Riou that what I'd do after the war, see what the world looks like with people I love. Just like Tir and Gremio did. It's a perfect ending for me.
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Nlelith » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:04 pm

Jowy's reasons for doing what he did are pretty tricky to fully understand, but once you do (as i asume Hero did, since they were best friends after all so he would understand Jowy) you'd see it actually makes sense.

Jowy explained at the end that, as long as both Jowsten and Highland occupy the same area, they will constantly wage war against one another. They might be able to attaine peace for this generation, but, ultimately, the next generation will mean the next war, so Jowy tried to make sure that doesn't happen. He made sure that the war ends now, once and for all. Originally he wormed his way into Highland so he could stop Luca, but now that Luca is dead and he is the new leader of Highland he knew he had a huge responsibility - he couldn't sign the peace treaty as he knew it would only lead to another war and he couldn't just turn on his own people by purposely losing the war as that would be genoside and he's grown close to the people of Highland; he was their new hope. Not every highlander was an evil bastard; infact, few really were. He had no other choice but to give it his best and try to win the war. Not for Highland's sake, but for peace's sake.

In the end, everything he did was for the greater good, yet he still couldn't forgive himself, that's why in the end he wanted Hero to kill him; to get rid of Highland, which included himself lest he be a hypocrit. Infact the only "evil" thing he really did was kill lady Annabelle, which, according to Suikogaiden was so he could save his own family. Hero understood Jowy and managed to forgive him. He understood that this was all part of Destiny; the Destiny of the bearers of the parts of the Rune of Beginning. They, unlike Genkaku and Han, settled their Destiny instead of running from it by sealing the runes away. I agree that the ending where Jowy and Nanami die is more touching, and I usually hate fairytale endings, but at the same time the ending where our hero loses his best friend AND his sister is a little harsh.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby KC_MCDOHL » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:29 pm

I must say I always preferd the bad ending. I didn't even know there was a good ending untill like my third time through the game lol. Nah, i much prefer the bad ending - I feel it suits the tragic mood of the game better ...but I'm a miserable so and so :wink:

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby RangerDeon » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:04 pm

The only reason why I didn't like it was because I hated Jowy soooo much.
All that could have been avoided if he wasn't such a ksjfnwjsao!

But the ending was 'cute' if you didn't despise Jowy like I did.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Rezard » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:44 am

Nlelith wrote:Jowy's reasons for doing what he did are pretty tricky to fully understand, but once you do (as i asume Hero did, since they were best friends after all so he would understand Jowy) you'd see it actually makes sense.

Jowy explained at the end that, as long as both Jowsten and Highland occupy the same area, they will constantly wage war against one another.


Even if you understand his reasons, it is still highly debatable if his radical course of action was the best. Even after Higland dissolution they STILL waged war against each other. See Higheast Rebelion, it took only a few years for them to go again at each other. This war/conflict could have turn pretty nasty if not for Shu.

One shoudlnt look too much into a game(or any kind of fiction) as it never makes sense completely, but if, for example, a future Jowy's son married a Riou daugther, it would lead to a more stable peace.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:34 am

Even if you understand his reasons, it is still highly debatable if his radical course of action was the best. See Higheast Rebelion, it took only a few years for them to go again at each other.

Except that's not what the Higheast Rebellion actually was. It was Harmonia invading Dunan to reclaim the region, not ex-Highland rising up against their rulers. It was between Harmonia and Dunan, not Highland and Dunan.
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Rezard » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:09 pm

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Except that's not what the Higheast Rebellion actually was. It was Harmonia invading Dunan to reclaim the region, not ex-Highland rising up against their rulers. It was between Harmonia and Dunan, not Highland and Dunan.

From gensopedia, the underline is mine:

"The Higheast Rebellion is a war in which southern Harmonian forces, working with Highland loyalists in the Higheast Province, led an invasion of the area in order to reclaim the land which had once belonged to Harmonia over 200 years ago and which they had in fact gifted to the first King of Highland, Maroux Blight. Harmonian troops entered the region as the Dunan Army, assisted by several former Allied Army officers engaged them within the region. "

You know, one wouldnt call a rebellion a simple war between two countries.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:15 pm

Yes. And? That line means nothing, they could have had 2 ex-highlanders with them and it'd be correct.

We already know they used Jillia as a figure-head, it was still Harmonia that started it. That they had a few people in Higheast agreeing with them doesn't suddenly mean it was Higheast that started fighting with Dunan. Without Harmonia it would never have occurred in the first place.

Or are you saying that if I fight with the US army in a battle then I also dragged my entire country into it?
You know, one wouldnt call a rebellion a simple war between two countries.

Depends on your intentions entirely.

Nor would one call a world filled with faunae and life the World of Emptiness, but there you have it.
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Rezard » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:41 pm

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Yes. And? That line means nothing, they could have had 2 ex-highlanders with them and it'd be correct.
If it means nothing, then why did they bother to add the line there? If it is worth of mention, it is clear that the participation of former highlanders was important.

If you alone are figthing against something, the history books wont say americans are fighting in a "X" war. There should be a relevant number of americans fighting the "X" war for these books to say it.

For honesty I must say, based on that line alone, that I dont know if it was hundreds or thousands of highlanders fighting together, but...
Depends on your intentions entirely.Nor would one call a world filled with faunae and life the World of Emptiness, but there you have it.
You will have hard time if you are trying to prove it to me that the higheast REBELLION was not a REBELLION, as you would have hard time proving it to me that the Harmonia civil war was not a civil war and it was not in Harmonia, or that the Dunan Unification War was not on Dunan, it didnt result in any unification and it wasnt a war. It was probably just a strange party.

Come on Raww! Dont force it! Sure, there are stuff poorly named, but those are exceptions, not the rule. Normally names of events are accuratte, especially when it comes to armed conflicts.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:34 am

You're completely misrepresenting it. You can't use an event that only occured cause Harmonia invaded to prove that Highland would always fight Dunan.
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Rezard » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:22 pm

When did I say that Highland would always fight Dunan? I said the rebellion was a proof that Jowy idea might be seen as a failure (I said it was debatable), after all conquest didnt prove to be a good way to avert more war between Highland and Dunan.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Iesous » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:41 pm

I think I'm with Rezard on this one. Jowy's course of action was intended to keep "Highland" from ever fighting "Dunan" again. No matter who was behind the Higheast rebellion, it was a fight between "Highland" and Dunan. Jowy's plan didn't end up working out, which means it might not have been the best plan.

It's interesting that you bring up Jillia, Raww. I don't know much about the rebellion. Did Harmonia really set up Jillia as a figurehead for the rebellion? If so, then Jowy doubly failed. He says at the end of S2 that he killed Jillia. (Obviously, he lied.) But his failure to kill Jillia contributed to Harmonia's plans.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:29 am

Supposedly. The official information only says that Harmonia used a former member of Highland royalty, or some wording like that, to legitimize their invasion. Given that she's the only surviving member and that she went to Harmonia afterwards it's hard not to fill in that blank.
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby fevergrease » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:43 am

I hope it's not inappropriate to bump this? It's gotten responses over the last few years so I think it must be OK. I just wanted to throw my two cents in, for what it's worth. I'll preface this by saying it's only my personal opinion. I don't pretend like what I believe is absolute, and as somebody pointed out the beauty of multiple endings is you can pick the one which you like.

First of all, I'm fairly shocked that people let off Jowy so easily. Of course it's a fantasy setting, and perhaps it feels good to be forgiving but I just cannot bring myself to do it. I take the ''role playing'' aspect fairly seriously, as I'm sure most of you do. But for me, if you truly care for someone then you're also able to look them in the eye and tell them what they're doing is wrong. Make no mistake, Jowy did terrible things and admitted as such. He even begs you for justice. I'm not saying that forgiving him is ''wrong'', but this is a character who manipulated and killed for his goals. To him, the end justified the means and he threw away human lives for the goal of peace. Very hypocritical and evil. (Spoiler for Final Fantasy Tactics ahead.) I'm wondering what everybody here thinks of Delita? The parallels between Ramza/Delita and Riou/Jowy are very similar, except in FFT's case you'll find only a small group of people defending the actions of Delita. In the case of Jowy, I see many people still supporting him. Once again, not saying it's wrong but I just can't see the morality of this action. EVERYONE should be responsible for their own actions no matter their intention, and justice should be applied to both friend and foe at the cost of personal happiness for the good of all society.

Secondly, no matter what options you choose in this game Riou is shown to be quite selfless. This is shown when he forgives Jowy, true, but this trait is expressed far better if Riou becomes the leader of the new nation. Riou slays his best friend to remove all traces of tyrannical Highland and to bring him to justice. He leaves behind his only family (unknowingly) or she's killed in battle and he perseveres on for his country. With his new found immortality, he brings peace to the nation and as an already well known and also feared figure his task is made that much easier. Essentially, he gives up his personal happiness for the happiness of many. This is much more fitting with Riou's actions in the story. In the ''best'' ending, he essentially leaves the entire nation in a leaderless chaos and forgives a known murderer because he's a good friend/nice guy. Not very heroic to me, in fact it's quite selfish and also pretty moronic considering he put forth a monumental effort of uniting the nation only to leave it somebody else's less capable and less influential hands.

Third, it seems to me that people are assuming that Nanami is dead no matter what in the ''bad'' ending. This isn't entirely true. In one scenario she is dead. In the other, she lives on but doesn't want to burden the nation's new leader. She explicitly says that was her reason for feigning death. If you kill Jowy, you're still the nation's new leader so she has no reason to reveal that she's still alive even if she is. I realize the epilogue text of Nanami's will say she's dead in the ''bad'' ending no matter what, but if you do the appropriate actions to save her then she should still be alive regardless. I'll admit, the ambiguous nature of the text leaves it open to interpretation but that's how I see it. Furthermore, Nanami isn't cut out for the lifestyle of war and bloodshed. She wants to live a quiet life, so in this regard Nanami ends up being happy no matter what happens to her. (If you saved her life, that is.)

There are other reasons I think the ''bad'' ending is much more appropriate, but they are admittedly minor. Overall, I feel the ''best'' ending is really quite terrible. It seems very out of character, childish, selfish, and honestly evil since you are placing your personal needs over a nation that needs your leadership.

But to each his own.


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