Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
Shymirror
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Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Shymirror » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:55 pm

The idea of Riou, Nanami and Jowy living happily ever after is a dream come true to them. But it just doesn't apply to any realistic outcome to a war the magnitude of the one that takes place in the game. Despite the fact that Jowy 'meant well', he still gave Luca Blight a winning advantage for a time, even if it was deception. I can't accept that Riou would ever be best friends forever with Jowy again after he chose a path that ran concurrent to the Stars of Destiny. What Konami should have done was allow the Nanami reveal if you shouted quickly enough, and leave the Jowy thing completely optional.

As it is, the ending that makes the most sense to me is the one with Jowy accepting his defeat and heralding the tragic victory of his best friend. So, my question is: Does anyone else who gets the best ending feel like it leaves a bad taste in your mouth? Like too much suffering has happened for them to still be friends?

Sabrewulf
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Postby Sabrewulf » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:34 am

In every Suikoden the game doesn't end when the hero is victorious against the ennemi's army but after his victory against his rune.
Thinking that way the best ending in Suikoden II is the most logical.

Falenan_descent
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Postby Falenan_descent » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:58 am

Well put it this way :P

Since Riou is supposed to be you and is meant to act how you would wanna act. Thus the whole silent protagonist thing...

If you don't like it then just kill Jowy in the duel :P Plain and simple. Lol. Us compassionate people really wanted to forgive Jowy because we knew that he wasn't REALLY a traitor. Just didn't think that Riou could do what Jowy was gonna do. ANd wanted to save his best friend from that. Kinda like Sialeeds.

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patapi
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Postby patapi » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:17 am

To me, the Hero of Suikoden II probably thought of both Jowy and Nanami so much more than the entire population of Jowston and Highland combined. The canonical best ending was then a perfectly natural choice.

That's why I think highly of him the least of all the Tenkai stars.

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Postby Falenan_descent » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:44 am

To me, the Hero of Suikoden II probably thought of both Jowy and Nanami so much more than the entire population of Jowston and Highland combined. The canonical best ending was then a perfectly natural choice.

That's why I think highly of him the least of all the Tenkai stars.


Or did he? He still fought on even after having lost Jowy -AND- Nanami and worked towards a nation that everyone wanted.

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Postby Mister Mugs » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:07 pm

Well, if he had lost the two most important things to him, then all he would have left is the cause of his army. He could bury himself in that in an attempt to quell and smother his grief.

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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Rune of Illusion » Thu May 03, 2007 6:41 pm

Shymirror wrote:The idea of Riou, Nanami and Jowy living happily ever after is a dream come true to them. But it just doesn't apply to any realistic outcome to a war the magnitude of the one that takes place in the game. Despite the fact that Jowy 'meant well', he still gave Luca Blight a winning advantage for a time, even if it was deception. I can't accept that Riou would ever be best friends forever with Jowy again after he chose a path that ran concurrent to the Stars of Destiny. What Konami should have done was allow the Nanami reveal if you shouted quickly enough, and leave the Jowy thing completely optional.


You don't have to view that ending at all they give you plenty of chances to mess it up right until the end. The thing Riou and Nanami wanted was to reunite with their best friend the only thing they had from their respective childhoods. That is why they emphasized the bond the two boys shared. This was a bond that cannot be broken by betrayal or destiny. The Beginning rune played a part in this as well as the two bearers of the Bright Shield and Black Sword runes must battle each other.

Shymirror wrote:As it is, the ending that makes the most sense to me is the one with Jowy accepting his defeat and heralding the tragic victory of his best friend. So, my question is: Does anyone else who gets the best ending feel like it leaves a bad taste in your mouth? Like too much suffering has happened for them to still be friends?


These two boys, like I said earlier, share a bond that cannot be broken by anything. Thats why they give you so many scenes of them promising to be friends and such forever. The war didn't matter. Jowy made some hard decisions that he would not have made if he didn't believe in them. He believed that only he could save these war torn countries. He didn't figure that Riou would be able to get as far as he did. He used Riou to kill Luca and thought he could unite the lands under his rule and inadvertently carried the war on longer than needed. I think the ending was great myself and you certainly could have killed Jowy if you wanted or not obtained the ending at all.
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Postby LanceHeart » Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm

I've always found that the Dunan Unification War and the Highland-State war that came before it were basically the will of the Black Sword and Bright Shield runes wanting to continue their eternal struggle.

The only thing that didn't sit well with me is how the two rune bearers got along so well after the war ended. It might indicate that there's a chapter missing to the creation myth, which manifests itself at the end of the Dunan Unification War when the two bearers finally end the struggle and get along (instead of reunite the Rune of Beginning and make the Sword admit defeat).
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Liam
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Postby Liam » Tue May 15, 2007 12:26 pm

Wasn't it curse of the 'Rune of Beginning' that two best friends must fight each other where one of them will die?!

I thought that point of "good ending" was to show how power of true friendship can surpass just about anything, and how even destiny "herself" can't stand between true friends.

Actually it is quite simple - if you show your trust in Jowy and your love for him everything will be fine, if you don't magic of friendship is broken, and he will die.
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Shymirror
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choices

Postby Shymirror » Tue May 15, 2007 7:22 pm

I guess I just don't hold to the philosophy that friendship can surpass anything in real life. If anything, most friends will eventually outgrow you or let you down. Family is unsurpassable. Friendship is petty and can change at any time for any reason. Whatever friendship they had was tossed out by Jowy when he sided with Luca Blight. He made that choice and he doesn't deserve the happy ending. It's fitting that he is held accountable for the choices he made, regardless of intent. Saying he is sorry doesn't bring Ridley, Granmeyer, Annabelle or anyone else who died during the course of the game back. Just as in life, we are responsible for our decisions.

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Postby Michael Easton » Wed May 16, 2007 1:11 pm

Sabrewulf wrote:In every Suikoden the game doesn't end when the hero is victorious against the ennemi's army but after his victory against his rune.


I'd mostly agree with this assessment with perhaps the exception of Suikoden I: after all, that game ends with the Rune bearer leaving Toran to avoid putting anyone else in danger from the Soul Eater - not exactly a victory against the rune.

Intraman
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Re: choices

Postby Intraman » Thu May 31, 2007 2:58 pm

Shymirror wrote:Family is unsurpassable. Friendship is petty and can change at any time for any reason. .

Well Riou doesn't have any "real family." Jowy was always like his brother.

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Iku
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Postby Iku » Thu May 31, 2007 5:31 pm

i dont like the official ending because the other, the one being mentioned here, seems so tragic and well thought out because riou has lost everything in the war and has become the victims that jowy was trying to protect! whilst the official ending seems as though their forgetting all the people who died fighting their war (also its a bit cheesey), if you think about it the war could've ended after luca died but jowy purposefully dragged it on. so i dont think riou should have forgiven jowy, not because their not family, if it were nanami id think the same, but because jowy did an awful thing, yes he repented but it wasnt enough!
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Mystical
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Mystical » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:13 pm

I personally find Suikoden II's story to be one of the greatests, especially with the best ending. I like Jowy. Riou and Nanami and how they all have very close bonds. Also how Riou doesn't forget his promise and does his best to be reunited with them.

It was neat how the "final battle" was between Jowy and Riou; the Black Sword bearer and the Bright Shield bearer.
Jowy attacking as the Black Sword and Riou defending as the Bright Shield.
I find it all to be well-made.

i dont like the official ending because the other, the one being mentioned here, seems so tragic and well thought out because riou has lost everything in the war and has become the victims that jowy was trying to protect! whilst the official ending seems as though their forgetting all the people who died fighting their war (also its a bit cheesey), if you think about it the war could've ended after luca died but jowy purposefully dragged it on. so i dont think riou should have forgiven jowy, not because their not family, if it were nanami id think the same, but because jowy did an awful thing, yes he repented but it wasnt enough!

I respect your opinion.
But I think it's something like this:
Jowy has given up hope and accepted the fate bestowen upon him by the True Rune.
But Riou didn't. Riou values his friendship to the point that he'd eventually stop the fighting between the two runes.
And/or:
Seeing how Jowy's rune was the Black Sword, it meant darkness and pain.
While Riou's rune was the Bright Shield, it meant hope and defending his beloved ones.
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Sonic
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Re: Suikoden II Best Ending just doesn't set well with me

Postby Sonic » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:39 pm

Mystical wrote:I personally find Suikoden II's story to be one of the greatests, especially with the best ending. I like Jowy. Riou and Nanami and how they all have very close bonds. Also how Riou doesn't forget his promise and does his best to be reunited with them.

It was neat how the "final battle" was between Jowy and Riou; the Black Sword bearer and the Bright Shield bearer.
Jowy attacking as the Black Sword and Riou defending as the Bright Shield.
I find it all to be well-made.


I never thought about it like that, that's very neat. Good insight.

Anyway, while I'll happily admit that the Best Ending is a bit twee for my tastes, it still seems to me that a lot of people are being too hard on poor ol' Jowy. Keep in mind that Jowy and Riou had identical intentions- to end the war. They just went about it in different ways, and had to fight each other as a result. Jowy meets with Riou several times during the game pleading with him to run away from the battles, but he never does (well, maybe he does in Tinto, depending on what you chose to do, but still). Remember, Jowy may have "betrayed" Riou by joining Highland, but if Riou had given the whole "Dunan Army" thing a miss, Jowy would have ended the war eventually by himself. I suppose in the end it really is more about the destiny of the Rune Bearers than it is about Jowy and Riou personally.
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