Luc words...

[Lazlo Mcdohl]

Is it true that in the intro of Suikoden 1 the words "Is fate unchangeble?" is spoken by Luc? if yes then hmm doesnt that add to the many many secrets of the suikoden world?

[Sickpup]

I love those lines (...obviously) and I thought it was Leknaat that spoke them.

Edit: Unless Luc asks the question and Leknaat answers. Wow! That would make things very interesting! I never thought so much into this. I thought they were just...words. And never really thought about who was speaking them.

[Wraith]

It is what Luc wants to know but Leknaat dousn't know herself I think. I'm not sure but one theory for why Leknaat didn't interfere with Luc in S3 is because she wanted to know if man can change fate.

[SpecialNewb]

Heh, I'd forgotten about those words. They pretty much sum up the entire Suikoden mythology. I guess my answer would be "Only by those destined to change it" which is about as good a non-answer as I can give.

[Komataguri]

Heh, I'd forgotten about those words. They pretty much sum up the entire Suikoden mythology. I guess my answer would be "Only by those destined to change it" which is about as good a non-answer as I can give.

If fate can only be changed by those destined....then dosn't it just mean that it was fate all along? and thus nothing was changed?

[Ushiku]

Heh, I'd forgotten about those words. They pretty much sum up the entire Suikoden mythology. I guess my answer would be "Only by those destined to change it" which is about as good a non-answer as I can give.

If fate can only be changed by those destined....then dosn't it just mean that it was fate all along? and thus nothing was changed?

Well it was Jowy and Riou's fate to fight each other until the Rune of Beginning was made from the Black Sword and Bright Sheild Runes, however Riou's refusal to fight Jowy and the power of the 108 Stars of Destiny prevented Jowy's death and healed him of the curse of the Black Sword Rune.
Simiarly, Han and Genkaku sealed their Runes, thus altering fate by not fighting each other for the Rune.

Whilst Runes are known to bend their bearers to their will under the master/servant relationship, there are such scenarios where even without mastery of a rune, circumstance can allow fate to be changed.

Effectively, Luc did change fate. Though it wasn't in the way he wanted by destroying his True Wind Rune, his orchestration of a war in the Grasslands created the situation for a gathering of the 108 Stars of Destiny.
The fate shown to him by the Rune was of one where he was a puppet of Hikusaak under the stagnation which domination of Order in the balance of Order and Chaos wins.
So although he didn't change fate the way he would have liked to by destroying his True Wind Rune, he did change fate, since he was no longer alive to be a puppet of Hikusaak as a result of his plan failing due to the interception of the Fire Bringer.

[Komataguri]

Heh, I'd forgotten about those words. They pretty much sum up the entire Suikoden mythology. I guess my answer would be "Only by those destined to change it" which is about as good a non-answer as I can give.

If fate can only be changed by those destined....then dosn't it just mean that it was fate all along? and thus nothing was changed?

Well it was Jowy and Riou's fate to fight each other until the Rune of Beginning was made from the Black Sword and Bright Sheild Runes, however Riou's refusal to fight Jowy and the power of the 108 Stars of Destiny prevented Jowy's death and healed him of the curse of the Black Sword Rune.
Simiarly, Han and Genkaku sealed their Runes, thus altering fate by not fighting each other for the Rune.

Whilst Runes are known to bend their bearers to their will under the master/servant relationship, there are such scenarios where even without mastery of a rune, circumstance can allow fate to be changed.

But what of those changes were there in and of themselves, fate.


Then it was all fate, It does little more than give the false feelings that you defeated fate, when in actuality's it was that way which fate desired things to go?


Do you get what I'm saying here?

[Ushiku]

I understand, but the thing is with True Runes, they have such power that they are worshipped as the Gods of the Suikoden world, so therefore to change fate by defeating its curse is a remarkable action.
The Rune of Beginning examples above are such examples of that, as well as the Rune of Punishment beared by Lazlo. Only by the power of the 108 stars of destiny/forgiving Snowe was the Rune able to progress to its little seen forgiveness stage.
On a side note, is it known is this True Rune can regress? Such as if for example Lazlo started abusing the Rune's power in the forgiveness stage and went on a murderous rampage because the fact he looks strange when he runs and some holders of the Godspeed Rune were laughing at him, so he toasted them with the Rune of Punishment. Would it be possible for the Rune of Punishment to return to its atonement stage for abuse of the forgiveness stage privledge, so as soon as the Rune of Punishment no longer drains the users life he starts going crazy.

I'm sure that some things, whilst not necessarily being fate, can be changed.

[son_michael]

I understand, but the thing is with True Runes, they have such power that they are worshipped as the Gods of the Suikoden world, so therefore to change fate by defeating its curse is a remarkable action.
The Rune of Beginning examples above are such examples of that, as well as the Rune of Punishment beared by Lazlo. Only by the power of the 108 stars of destiny/forgiving Snowe was the Rune able to progress to its little seen forgiveness stage.
On a side note, is it known is this True Rune can regress? Such as if for example Lazlo started abusing the Rune's power in the forgiveness stage and went on a murderous rampage because the fact he looks strange when he runs and some holders of the Godspeed Rune were laughing at him, so he toasted them with the Rune of Punishment. Would it be possible for the Rune of Punishment to return to its atonement stage for abuse of the forgiveness stage privledge, so as soon as the Rune of Punishment no longer drains the users life he starts going crazy.

I'm sure that some things, whilst not necessarily being fate, can be changed.

no, Lazlo is the master of the rune or punishment which means he can use it ANY way he see's fit, the rune will only revert to its atonement stage if Lazlo is killed or if Lazlo voluntarily gives up the rune, to put it simply...whenever Lazlo bears the rune of Punishment it will be in its forgiveness stage and it will not hurt him because he is its master

[Sickpup]

I was thinking, did the power of the 108 starts do anything in Suikoden 3? In the game, it unlocked you the Luc chapters.

But that is just a bonus, and in the story, I can't think of anything happening because they gathered.

[Ushiku]

Thanks, I just figured that since it often took years to gain mastery over a True Rune, Lazlo has the Rune of Punishment in Forgiveness stage, but the role of master/servant could be reversed.

[Futch02]

I was thinking, did the power of the 108 starts do anything in Suikoden 3? In the game, it unlocked you the Luc chapters.

But that is just a bonus, and in the story, I can't think of anything happening because they gathered.

LoL. I had a hard time figuring that out too, and after a lot of asking and clarification, I recieved this answer, which is perhaps the most concrete answer I have yet to recieve....

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR SUIKO1-4:

Well, gathering the 108 Stars enable you to succesfully fight against "destiny".

1. You undid an occurrence of Soul Eater's curse through Gremio's revival.

2. The final part of Rune of Beginning's curse was neutralized, as you and Jowy no longer need to fight to death in fulfilling your fate as bearers of its two halves.

3. You free Masked Bishop from his "fate", and stop the destruction of a true rune in the process. You learn about the truth only by unlocking his POV (or, spoil yourself from guides or forums like this one). I suppose that would count as a "blessing" for Luc, except that it involves causing death this time instead of undoing it. His original destiny would have been to be continue being a puppet of Hikusaak, living eternally with True Wind Rune embedded to his soul, directly contributing to the creation of a world of absolute Order. And 108 Stars had come together to stop that.

4. You neutralized Punishment's death curse by achieving the Forgiveness phase, enabling Hero 4 to survive the war. Of course, the underlying reason here is the fact that gathering all of them requires you to forgive Snowe, so.

The theme had always been there. "Please tell me the answer... is fate unchangable?"

[Ushiku]

I love that theme in the game, I'm sure Luc's words have a wider significance than we know of so far. My guess is that whilst Leknaat said that what Luc saw, the fate of absolute Order was one of the many possible outcomes of fate there is still a possibility of absolute chaos or a restored and neutral balance, depending on the will of those involved or the True Runes will over any novice bearers, I wonder if the Fog Ship Guide will return since in Suikoden 4 he mentioned plunging the world into eternal chaos at the end of the world. But Leknaat as keeper of the balance was able to neutralise the power of chaos so that neither chaos or order tipped the scales of the balance.

[maha_gnosis]

I was thinking, did the power of the 108 starts do anything in Suikoden 3? In the game, it unlocked you the Luc chapters.

But that is just a bonus, and in the story, I can't think of anything happening because they gathered.

with the power of 108 star, Luc was forgiven and able to become one with the true wind rune.



My question here is, if our Will are Fate (controlled by Fate)...

[Ushiku]

I think the only will which is controlled by fate is the will of a True Rune bearer, but even then once the bearer achieves mastery over the True Rune, it is no longer a problem in terms of bending to the will of the True Rune.