Lucretia Defence in Depth strategy realworld parallelSPOILER

Felenan Prince · Post by **Felenan Prince** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:52 pm

Ok the moment I heard Lucretia's plan and how she ordered people to take as much food/supplies as they could makes me thing this strategy is very similar to the scorch earth strategy used by Russia during Napoleon invasion. It even made it seem more similar when Lucretia said they sould abandon the castle much like How the russian government of the time also abandoned Moscow. Napoleon just like Armes though that if they could get the castle or in the case of Napoleon, Moscow they would win the war(much to both of there suprises

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Clangeddin · Post by **Clangeddin** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:04 pm

Yeah that's right.

It's also very similar to how Russia defeated Germany in the Second World War.
They pretended to retreating, but they evacuated the population and took all the resources with em, allowing a weather element (The cold Russian Winter), to weaken the army.

In Suikoden 5 instead of the winter they use the Flood gate system of the castle, but its very similar. ;D

son_michael · Post by **son_michael** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:32 pm

her plan was slightly different from these real world examples

1. weaken the enemy by striking them fast with hard hitting attacks

2. get out of there quickly before the enemy could really retaliate

3. evacuate all civiliians {thus raising morale among the people and bassically spreading the word that the prince is good and the godwins are bad}

4. take all provisions and supplies{another way of weakening the enemy army}

5. Lead the enemy to the prince's castle and allow them to take it over {this buys the prince some time to do things under the enemy's nose as well as give the enemy a false sense of security which would ease there attacks/search}

6. Fortify all forces and aquire more strength{dragon calvary!}

7. secretly flood the castle {thus putting the enemy soldiers in panic and dissaray}

8. Return to the castle with a much stronger army{element of surprise!} and take it back!

her plan not only minimized damage to there forces but it also increased the overall strength and morale of the prince's army and on the opposite side the enemy army lost morale and a large amount of there forces

the people also rallied behind the prince when they saw the prince actually cared about them enough to evacuate them instead of using them as a scapegoat to run away{like those mean godwins!}

so you see..some of lucretia's plan was simmilar to those real examples but her plan was far more ingeniuse than those real world examples

Felenan Prince · Post by **Felenan Prince** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:55 pm

Actual the real word examples are nearly identical to Lucretia plan. The Russians did take as much supply as possible. They russian created fire in Moscow thus burning most of the city leaving Napoleon forces without shelter from the cold. True the russians didn't perform hit and runs and rather they just retreated but still they achived the objective of defeating a superior force of Napoleon.

Clangeddin · Post by **Clangeddin** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:21 am

son_michael wrote:her plan was slightly different from these real world examples

1. weaken the enemy by striking them fast with hard hitting attacks

2. get out of there quickly before the enemy could really retaliate

3. evacuate all civiliians {thus raising morale among the people and bassically spreading the word that the prince is good and the godwins are bad}

4. take all provisions and supplies{another way of weakening the enemy army}

5. Lead the enemy to the prince's castle and allow them to take it over {this buys the prince some time to do things under the enemy's nose as well as give the enemy a false sense of security which would ease there attacks/search}

6. Fortify all forces and aquire more strength{dragon calvary!}

7. secretly flood the castle {thus putting the enemy soldiers in panic and dissaray}

8. Return to the castle with a much stronger army{element of surprise!} and take it back!

her plan not only minimized damage to there forces but it also increased the overall strength and morale of the prince's army and on the opposite side the enemy army lost morale and a large amount of there forces

the people also rallied behind the prince when they saw the prince actually cared about them enough to evacuate them instead of using them as a scapegoat to run away{like those mean godwins!}

so you see..some of lucretia's plan was simmilar to those real examples but her plan was far more ingeniuse than those real world examples

6 out of 8 elements were identical to what Russia did in Second World War and Against Napoleon...

The only differences lie in the points 5 and 7. >.>

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:34 am

damn. They should've secretley flooded Moscow!

I wonder if they consiously took it from Russia.

SpecialNewb · Post by **SpecialNewb** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:46 am

The "increased" strength is a joke. You never have more than 1200 or so troops throughout the entire game, you just have various units.

Clangeddin · Post by **Clangeddin** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:03 am

SpecialNewb wrote:The "increased" strength is a joke. You never have more than 1200 or so troops throughout the entire game, you just have various units.

Thats true, I don't get why the "health" of your units is always 100, except for Babbag'es catapult that has 150...

They could have given "plot-points" that increased the health of your units to 150-200 or so...

ShardStar · Post by **ShardStar** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:50 am

I think it's to give the impression that you are the underdog and your fighting against greater numbers. I suppose that makes the Godwin forces look crappy huh?

SpecialNewb · Post by **SpecialNewb** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:45 pm

Come on! In several battles you have united 2/3s of the country! By the end Armes is quiet and you have EVERYONE behind you but Stormfist yet only a tiny ammount?

After you defeat the Armes invasion you are no longer the underdog.

Clangeddin · Post by **Clangeddin** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:52 pm

ShardStar wrote:I think it's to give the impression that you are the underdog and your fighting against greater numbers. I suppose that makes the Godwin forces look crappy huh?

No, its just made it so to make the great battles a sort of a challenge.

Consider that the AI of the enemy units in those battle is very poor, very few of them have special moves like charge and barrage, while you have a whole arsenal to unsleash on em.

They decided to make your units with few health only to "balance" things and make the battles challenging.

The battles end up being a joke anyway since you can destroy every naval unit of the enemy with just Beavers and Dragon Horses... (Since they are ALWAYS strong on water).
In this case having units with 200 health or so would have made the great wars completely trivial and just a way to bore you for 10 minutes.

What I meant, is that in terms of "army's numbers" the prince should have more than the Godwins in the final battles, however this doesn't happen because of balancing factors.

However, what I think is that they should have tuned the enemy's armies stronger, not in numbers of units, but in terms of AI behavior and regarding the number of skills they have.
If this was done, then they could have also added plot-points or a whole section where you could "upgrade" your army via star of destiny recruit or Headquartier's Upgrade...

Aesir · Post by **Aesir** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:16 am

Though examples of Napoleon's campaign and WW2 may look similar, they were very diffrent.
In case of war in 1812, strategy that was used by Russian army was really somewhat similar to Lucretia's. Russian army was intentionally constantly retreating and avoiding major battle, making small skirmishes at French flanks. After battle near Borodino, in which Napoleon was not able to defeat Russian army, commaner of Russian army Kutuzov decided to leave Moscow without fight. By capturing Moscow Napoleon thought that he already won and waited for pease offering from emperor Alexander I. While Napoleon waited peace negotiations, to Russian army came fresh reinforcements from Finland, Moldavia and cossacs from Don. Were Moscow burned intentionaly or fire was set accidently by French soldiers during pillage is debatable, but anyway under threat of upcoming winter Napoleon was forced to leave the city. Greatly increased in number, Russian army blocked all ways to unpillaged parts of the country forcing Napoleon to move in already razed part of country. Cold, hunger, rise of partizan movement among simple people and threat of being outflanked by Russian army forced Frenchs constantly retreat. In battle near river Berezina major part of weakened French army was destroyed, Napoleon was able to escape with only small remains of his army.
But in case of German invasion in 1941, they were able advance so deep because Soviet army was completely unprepared to war. Only during first month of war, in vain attempts to stop Germans Soviet army lost about 850 thousands people. German army was stopped at the end of 1941 with help of fresh reinforcements from Siberia. It took about 3 years and many millions of people's lives just to drive Germans beyond borders. Though some aspects of this wars really similar, they are completly diffrent, mostly because scales of this two conflicts can not be compared. But I think that Lucretia's strategy was really taken from war of 1812.

Aesir · Post by **Aesir** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:32 am

Actually, strategy that Lucretia used in Raftfleet's defence against Luger's fleet reminded me of battle that is known in Russian history as Ledovoye Poboische (Ice Carnage). In the spring of 1242 German crusaders invaded into Novgorod's principality. Prince of Novgorod Alexander Nevskiy deployed his army at the ice of frozen lake. At the spring lake's ice was thick enough to support lightly armored Russian troops, but when heavy German knights charged at them, the ice under their horses crcked sending them into cold water.