The Ending (Spoilers)

Magnumkiller · Post by **Magnumkiller** » Thu May 11, 2006 8:36 pm

My guess is that the Sun Rune shows the important persons it killed and/or influenced. Marscal does say the Sun Rune corrupted the Godwins.

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:15 am

Magnumkiller wrote:My guess is that the Sun Rune shows the important persons it killed and/or influenced. Marscal does say the Sun Rune corrupted the Godwins.

Figuratively speaking. It didn't affect them like:" Hi I'm the Sun Rune, I'l cast corruption spell on Godwin!" The Godwins got power hungry. Thats all.

xXSqualleoNXx · Post by **xXSqualleoNXx** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:37 am

Wraith wrote:
Magnumkiller wrote:My guess is that the Sun Rune shows the important persons it killed and/or influenced. Marscal does say the Sun Rune corrupted the Godwins.
Figuratively speaking. It didn't affect them like:" Hi I'm the Sun Rune, I'l cast corruption spell on Godwin!" The Godwins got power hungry. Thats all.

He never used that as an excuse though. He was corrupted by the Sun Rune BECAUSE he seeked it's power to begin with. Arsthat, on the other hand, was slowly taken over by it, but she did fought against it's grip, unlike Marscal.

BTW, I don't really think the inclusion of Alenia and Zahhak to the ending was really wise. Unlike Gizel and Marscal, who at the end DID give up and in a way helped the Prince get the Sun Rune under control, Alenia and Zahhak hated the Prince until their last breath. So, why would they cheer him on after they went to the ultimate consequences in order to kill him? Unlike those two though, The Godwins, Dilber, and Bahrham did have some amount of respect for the Prince.

First I chose the ending where you become Queen's knight commander and I thought it was pretty good, because it makes sense and all; but I just finished the game again and chose the Georg ending... it was amazing O_O and you get to see all the characters saying goodbye to you, it almost made me cry, in the other ending you don't get to see nobody, that really sucked..and it was so very short. Now I'm confused; the queen's knight commander ending seems right but the other one is better... -_-

Well, yes, I wondered that too for a while. But then you realize, does the prince leaving Falena makes much sense? He has no True Rune, curse, or otherwise ailment. He never had any intention to leave his country, and he always showed he could overcome even betrayals. And after swearing to pass the Sun Rune on safely and protecting Falena, not to mention having just seen visions of his parents, why would he abandon Falena? It would be totally uncharacteristic of him.

Unlike previous heroes, he wasn't dragged into a war. He was always right in the middle of it. He created HIS rebel army and reclaimed Falena. The next natural step would be to become Falena's defender alongside his beloved sister and Lyon. There's no conceivable reason why he would leave.

DeathQuaker · Post by **DeathQuaker** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:53 pm

Wraith wrote:
Karayan_Fighter wrote: I got that ending. I thought it was pretty cool. But I still dont understand why Lyon died.
Her wond apparently reopened.

You know, I logged in for the first time in ages to ask about this. Can someone extrapolate on this further because it made no sense to me. In fact, this seemed to me one GLARINGLY awful plothole in what was otherwise a very well-written game. I got the good ending, mind you, but I was still getting ticked off at just the idea of Lyon mysteriously suddenly (almost)dying.

So she was wounded. She was treated by the best doctor in the land plus another doctor who seems to be specializing in finding antidotes to Nether Gate poisons PLUS not to mention an almost-true-rune of Absolute Healing Power healed her. And she got plenty of rest, and was showing absolutely no weakness fighting the 3,434,593 random encounters in that Sindar maze at the end. She beats Dolph. She's fine.

Then suddenly, she drops to the floor. What the? Where the HECK did that come from? I thought I'd somehow missed a scene.

AND not to mention--hey, she doesn't just drop dead. She gasps and sputters and talks. So I'm thinking, hey, Prince Hero STILL has Almost-True-Rune-Of-Absolute-Healing-Power--so why the bloody heck isn't he healing her with it?

It's just as awful with Nanami in Suikoden II, where the Bright Shield Rune grants ultimate Healing Whupness and yet, when Nanami gets hurt, he's calling for the doctor? HUH?

I realize this seems to be part of the famous RPG Gaming Cliches (the one entitled, "Mommy, Why Don't They Just Use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?")--but I find that disappointing as otherwise this game seems otherwise good at shattering said RPG cliches. It seems like all of the many healing runes in the game should be labled "Cures all wounds and status effects, except Cheesy Wounds Inflicted by the Power of Badly-Written Plot."

So forgive the ranting, but PLEASE tell me I missed something and say there is actually a plausible reason which does not require impossible levels of suspension of disbelief as to why Lyon died sans 108 Stars.

Or is it really, "Whoops, this is Suikoden, so we've got to punish all the people who accidentally picked a wrong dialogue option in recruitment by giving them a pointless character death." I really, really, really hope not because it cheapens the value of what is otherwise a mindblowingly, stunningly beautiful game.

Kirin · Post by **Kirin** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:56 pm

Well... I think you're mostly right in that it's a case of plot trumps game mechanics. The only mitigating theory I can come up with is that there's no reason to believe that Murad, Sylva, and Lyon have figured out *everything* about Nether Gate poisons - especially ones that may have been improved since it was officially disbanded. There are several former Nether Gate higher-ups mentioned to still be alive who we never meet in-game, and it's quite possible that Godwin could have bought and/or strong-armed new poisons off of them. So it's not implausible that even the good healers came across something they couldn't completely deal with. And, well, I guess the dawn rune isn't exactly all-powerful at healing, just good at it. There's also a vague possibility that near the end the Twilight Rune may have blocked it somehow, as those two runes are somewhat symmetrical.

As for her seeming completely fine during the last dungeon, though... yeah, I'll just chalk that up to game mechanics, combined with Lyon's desire to convince the Prince she's ok so he won't worry about her while he's busy saving the country.

Post by **Oppenheimer** » Fri May 12, 2006 4:27 pm

I always thought that the Sun Rune was feeding power to the Dawn Rune and so when the Sun Rune is defeated the healing power of the Dawn rune vanishes. That's why she's suddenly dying again, the healing was undone. Unless you get the good ending and then the Sun Rune makes a comeback and heals her.

Magnumkiller · Post by **Magnumkiller** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:54 pm

I like Oppenheimer's theory.

You are wrong though, as there is a part in which Lyon shows weakness, sometime around the re-capture of Sol Falena, I believe she staggers or grabs her back or something, but says its nothing.

My guess is she never recovered completely, remember what Silva said "I don't like to rely on runes" so it means runes aren't dependable.

On a side note, it is part of the Suikoden games to kill the friends and family of the hero/s. If not kill, atleast maim friendships, if only temporarily.

Even in Suikoden 3, Jimba was a friend of Hugo and Geddoe, and father of Chris. Lulu was a friend of Hugo. The Flame Champion was a friend of Geddoe, and so was the Lizard Clan Chief. We also have the other knights that were friends of Chris and end up dead.

At Suikoden 2, we get Nanami and Jowy as possible deads. Jowy betrays you at first, too.

At Suikoden 1, Gremio is killed and then revived, and Ted is killed.

Suikoden 4, Glen dies in front of the hero, the mother of the hero dies, and his best friend betrays him.

Philweasel · Post by **Philweasel** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:31 am

Leon is awe inspiringly stubborn, I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possiblity for her to fight to her full potential (Or even past it) while injured.

And she just fought Dolph, who's VERY good.

Fei Yuki · Post by **Fei Yuki** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:02 am

I'm inclined to think that somehow fighting Dolph sorta reinjures Lyon (at the end of the duel, she stumbles and tells the prince she's okay) and during that scene where she and the prince use the Dawn and Twilight rune respectively to "control" the sun rune incarnation thingee, that part sealed her fate.

I'm going by the logic that somehow the Twilight Rune "feeds" off the lifeforce of the owners they choose (look at Sialeeds) when the owner uses it to control the Sun Rune or something.

That and oppenheimer's theory, makes lyon a very dead person at the end of the game.

DeathQuaker · Post by **DeathQuaker** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:19 am

Oppenheimer wrote:I always thought that the Sun Rune was feeding power to the Dawn Rune and so when the Sun Rune is defeated the healing power of the Dawn rune vanishes. That's why she's suddenly dying again, the healing was undone. Unless you get the good ending and then the Sun Rune makes a comeback and heals her.

This makes a great deal of sense. It's a shame they don't explain it better though (maybe they actually do if she really dies? I haven't actually seen the normal ending. I just didn't understand why the whole melodrama was happening in the first place in the good ending). But this at least follows the metaphysics of the world a bit, and explains why Prince at first seems helpless to help her.

Magnumkiller wrote:On a side note, it is part of the Suikoden games to kill the friends and family of the hero/s. If not kill, atleast maim friendships, if only temporarily.

I know, which is all the more reason why it smacked of poor writing to me. Instead of actually coming up with something original and dramatic, they just said, "Well, it's Suikoden, so we've gotta punish all the losers who didn't get all 108 by potentially killing someone off." It seemed very pointless to me. Killing someone off just because, "Well, it has to happen because it's part of the formula for the game," is dumb. There are other things they could have done, or a way they could have written the scene so things at least made more sense.

It's not that "character death" is bad. Gremio's death was well done, and important to illustrate the curse of Souleater. Lulu's death was extremely important to the plot, and it was clear nothing could be done about it; likewise Jimba was drained and simply absorbed into True Water, as was Yun, and both scenes were dramatic and fitting. Lazlo being consumed by Punishment is a threat throughout the game and is a fitting end if you don't get all 108. (As a side note, of all the games, I think III handled character death best--it wasn't contingent on gameplay, it was part of the story and very much gave you the full implications of the horror of war; the plotline was tight. And I actually liked that no one gets brought back in III, save technically Jimba and Yun live on through the Rune.)

It's just when it's inexplicable or poorly explained or just seems gratuitous for the sake of something tragic happening, as with Nanami and Lyon, that I object to it. It's not the death, it's the writing. I'll note for S5, Sialeeds' death was very well done (though she had a death speech to rival the Iliad's Hector in length

). And I will note, I really liked Sialeeds. Come to think of it, even if they had added in a little thing like, "Any bearer of Twilight is doomed to die without the balancing power of Sun and Dawn," would have helped a lot with the plotting there. [Edit: Feiyuki posted while I was typing; I see we are thinking along the same lines.]

IMO, they would have done better to end the game after the battle at Sol Falena. It was dramatic and tense and wonderful; we had a great finish to an intrigue-driven game. Then they're like, "But wait! We need an obligatory Sindar Maze, Rune Incar Fight, and Character Death! Let's tack that on, quick!" No. No thank you. They can do better than that. They had done for the first 60 or so hours of the game.

Philweasel wrote:And she just fought Dolph, who's VERY good.

So why didn't she just collapse after fighting him?

Eh, I'll shut up now. Oppenheimer's explanation at least helps me piece the story together in my head. If I ever decide to write a fanfic based on this I can at least draw on something to help put the pieces together plausibly.

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:20 am

I'm going by the logic that somehow the Twilight Rune "feeds" off the lifeforce of the owners they choose (look at Sialeeds) when the owner uses it to control the Sun Rune or something.

Well thats what happened to jowy in Suikoden 2. Jowy used his Dark Blade Rune to keep the Beast Rune dormant but by doing that it sucked Jowy's life.

Fei Yuki · Post by **Fei Yuki** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:31 am

Overused cliche of key story characters with offensive runes end up with the option of being dead just because they were controlling/supporting another story character with a healing/supportive rune and end up having their life sucked as a result of drawing from the offensive rune's power. ><

So why didn't she just collapse after fighting him?

My guess is that Lyon's skills are better since she last fought him, plus she was driven to help the prince succeed in getting the sun rune. (If you talk to her during this time when you go to Ashtawal, she says something along the lines of "Prince! We must hurry and get the Sun Rune back!"). And the Dawn Rune's healing was still in effect after the fight, so she didn't collapse immediately although you can see very clearly that she's been injured.

Fei Yuki · Post by **Fei Yuki** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:39 am

On another interesting note, I was reading the japanese official guide to this game and noticed that if you didn't obtain all 108 SoDs, Lyon will always die, regardless of how high your "Lyon points" are.

This ties back to the part where you did get all 108 SoDs. Leknaat appears at the end and tells the prince that "he has united all the stars and gave proper forms to .. blah blah".

I'm thinking if that's the case, if the prince didn't "unite all the stars and gave proper forms to the runes", the Sun Rune is incomplete (somehow) and thus Lyon dies.

Wraith · Post by **Wraith** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:43 am

Well I beleive that Leknaat can influence True Runes without bearing them and she probably can only use a True Rune when the Tenkai has enough Stars to aid him. Or something like that, I don't really know but I always thought it was Leknaat who made the Soul Eater ressurect Gremio and kill the Fog ship Guide( since Ted was knocked out).

Oh and please try not to double post.

TirBcdohl951 · Post by **TirBcdohl951** » Sat May 13, 2006 3:56 pm

is the music different for each ending after you beat the sun incarnation? cuz i got all 108 and lyon lived then i looked at a the list of the OST of the game and i listened to the one that is played on that ending and the others ones i dont really recognize that are after number 417 which is the final boss theme and before song number 422 which is the one mentioned above.

if you're wondering what list im talking about go to bluelaguna.net