Tree seeds? nice try *spoilers*

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Oppenheimer
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Tree seeds? nice try *spoilers*

Post by Oppenheimer »

I'm all for tying up loose ends and think that Rhapsodia does a good job with it. But does anyone think that they pulled a connection between rune cannons and the giant tree final boss of Suikoden IV out of thin air in this one? Do you think that what they say about the tree in Rhapsodia is really what they had in mind when they made it the final boss of Suikoden IV?

Now keep in mind I haven't finished Rhapsodia yet, but from what I've learned so far it seems to me like they're trying to suddenly make sense of the randomness of Suikoden IV instead of revealing what had always been going on.

Edit: typo correction
Last edited by Oppenheimer on Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Angelis_Taleria »

I don't know, it would make sense since it was stated that Warlock was the creator of Rune Cannons and it's said that he's also the one that summoned the Giant Tree, so it could be plausible to an extent. What angers me is that Kyril supposedly found a branch of the tree. COnsidering you were in that very same room in SUikoden IV, Warlock had been living there, and Pablo came there from time to time its quite annoying that no one saw it except for Kyril. Very annoying.
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Post by Oppenheimer »

Angelis_Taleria wrote:I don't know, it would make sense since it was stated that Warlock was the creator of Rune Cannons and it's said that he's also the one that summoned the Giant Tree,
Did we know those two facts in Suikoden IV? Or did we learn them in Rhapsodia? I know Warlock had something to do with rune cannons but I cannot remember exactly what they said about him in IV.

Edit: That's a good point about the branch though.
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Post by Angelis_Taleria »

Yes, it was said that he was responsible for bring Rune Cannons into the world during SUikoden IV. However, the Giant Tree wasn't mentioned during this.
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Post by Oppenheimer »

Okay. Well, it still seems to be a big step from: "Warlock creator of rune cannons" and "Cray summons a giant tree for no reason". To "Warlock summoned a giant tree who's seeds created rune cannon ammunition and then it was sold to Cray who summoned it in the final battle for no apparent reason".
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Post by Angelis_Taleria »

Well, now that I think back upon it, with this new Rhapsodia info fresh in my mind, Graham Cray had a perfectly good reason to summon the tree. I mean, he'd just been defeated by the dispatch party led by Eleanor and now he was faced with an even stronger party consisting of Lazlo, and whoever else goes with him. The tree was his ace in the hole basically. If you were in a similar situation wouldn't you use the gigantic monster that makes Rune Cannon ammunition instead of attempting to fight them yourself, especially since you're in the same room with it. THis of course does not justify the fact that this was not well explained during Suikoden IV, but the reason for doing so seems to be there in Rhapsodia, even if briefly explained upon.

Also, the seeds didn't create ammunition, they were the ammunition. The explanation is not as strong as it should be, but at least its there.
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Post by Oppenheimer »

If the seeds were the ammunition why do you need characters with runes to fire the rune cannons in the strategy battles of Suikoden IV? Shouldn't anyone be able to fire the seeds? I thought that the seeds were an integral ingredient but that the use of a rune was required to actually ignite the seed and launch it at the enemy ship. That's why I said that the seeds "created" ammunition.

Yes, what you're saying about Cray summoning the tree makes some sort of sense. I'm not doubting that so much. What seemed fishy was that Rhapsodia made this all make sense in hind sight. But it seems to me like Suikoden IV brought out the tree pretty much randomly. It didn't mean anything. It seems like it was only later that Konami decided to explain it away as the creator of the ammunition. That explanation didn't really elaborate on facts already in Suikoden IV, more like they tried to force facts on a situation in retrospect that they had originally no bases for creating in the first place (besides "oh pretty colour changing tree, wow"). If that makes any sense. Perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit for foresight. Maybe they wanted to be vague so that people would buy Rhapsodia to actually understand what happened in Suiko IV.
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Post by patapi »

They probably did purposely leave the Giant Tree to be vague in Suikoden IV, but I also think that they already had this "seeds are the ammunition" concept from the very beginning, and deliberately left it with the rest of the Rune Cannon explanations for Rhapsodia.

Think about it: They didn't really tell us much about Rune Cannons in IV, save maybe little undeveloped hints like how to use them to destroy fleets of ship, Warlock being the original "inventor", Middleport's "neutral" status, etc.
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Post by Raww Le Klueze »

Didn't have a problem with that explenation, it made perfect sense to me there.

As for the ammo part what is it that you can't figure out? The seeds are the ammo, a person uses their rune to give them affinities.
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Post by Jowy Atreides »

There's also a book that briefly mentions the tree in Suikoden IV, so it's not entirely random, even without Rhapsodia.
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Post by HolyPaladin »

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Didn't have a problem with that explenation, it made perfect sense to me there.

As for the ammo part what is it that you can't figure out? The seeds are the ammo, a person uses their rune to give them affinities.
Same here, Suikoden Tactics' statemant made perfect sense to me. My reaction was like, "Oh, so that's what the Giant Tree was for. I get it now."

And about that branch that Kyril found, that's easily explained why only he noticed it. You see, in real life sometimes something can be in plain sight, but if you can't make a connect in your head, then you'll forget about it. In Kyril's case, because he had been told about the Giant Tree, then he, of course, made the vital connection that the branch on the ground was once part of the tree. In everyone else's case, because they didn't know about the Giant Tree, when they went to find Warlock, they couldn't make the connection that the branch belonged to the tree even though the branch was in plain sight.
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Post by Angelis_Taleria »

...Pablo was the one that told him about the tree and he didn't notice it. Warlock SUMMONED the tree and he obviously didn't notice it. There are just too many people who didn't notice it for it to be laying there as long as it was.

One thing I disliked was the fact that Warlock was only mentioned in this game. They should've at least shown him before he died or at least shown his death. Would've been excellent.
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Post by Oppenheimer »

Jowy Atreides wrote:There's also a book that briefly mentions the tree in Suikoden IV, so it's not entirely random, even without Rhapsodia.
Is there? I didn't notice that.

So how can one tree make all the ammo for all the rune cannons on both sides of the war? What kind of system do they have to get the "ammo" out and why would they give it to both sides? If Cray had the tree why did the island nations have ammo? Wouldn't he have hogged it all?
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Post by Angelis_Taleria »

I was thinking of that same thing earlier and there are multiple reasons.

Since Middleport was in league with the Kooluk, people could've been buying them from there. That or I'd chalk it up to Cray's sheer greediness. Perhaps he needed funding for his search of the RoP and didn't care who got their hands on what if there was a slight chance of gettng the rune.
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Post by son_michael »

well lets not forget about ramada, ramada was a spy and couldve easily been smuggling rune cannon ammo from crays company to lazlo's army, pablo had to have some amo since he spent his whole life studying rune cannons, and warlock created the rune cannons so of course he had to have a nice supply of ammo in that cave of his.

so my guess is= warlock creates rune cannons and summons tree and makes alot of ammo, he then sells ammo or distributes it somehow and both kooluk and obel manage to aquire some, pablo finds out about rune cannons and aqquires some of his own, merchants and various organizations sell these rune cannons and the amo to the highest bidders. when its all said and done, warlock loses the tree and cray aquires it somehow, cray offers kooluk unlimited rune cannon amo, ramada works with crays company, ramada joins the island nations and then gives lazlo all the rune cannon amo he was carrying, he also aqquires more from kooluk and gives it to lazlo. Pablo has learned about rune cannons and has aqquired alot of amo which lazlo will use, warlock joins the island nations and gives whatever amo he has left.

so there you have it, kooluk has tree so they have unlimited amo

thanks to resources and friends, the island nations has just enough amo to equip some ships with rune cannons


meh..thats my guess
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