About the end of suiko II....

[Lemmy Claypool]

am not saying there weak in the game just in general, your right most rgps main heros do just stick with swords, i think all ff games use swords apart from the ones that use job classes.

The only main FF protagonists that primarily used swords were Cecil, Firion, Cloud and Tidus. And I suppose you could argue Terra aswell. So that's half at a stretch, playing it safely would be less than half.

[Grubbs]

No one here can dispute that Tir wasn't a powerhouse in GS2 and a force to be reckoned with in GS1 with his moderately high attack

Moderatley high attack? Even in GS2 his attack power his higher than Riou's. At the same level, Rious has greater STR, DEF and Luck, while Tir has greater SKL, MGC and MagDef. However, because of his weapon, Tir ends up with greater attack power.

[Yuber]

hmm acutally, in ff8 squally uses a sword 2, even tho it can shoot lol, and in ff 1 they use swords, and in alot of the other older ones, and ff9 hero doesnt use 2 daggers, he holds the gaurd thingy that he puts the dagger into it if hes using the dagger.

[killey]

One quick question: at the end of SII if you get the best ending - Leknaat talks about how the Rune of Beginning is unlocked, is that just a poor translation or are the sword and shield runes now the rune of beginning despite being apart?

With Riou's tonfas don't forget the metal bits on either end, if he was older and had enough muscle so that his arm didn't break when he got hit, I think Riou would be able to beat Luca in a 1v1 fight. And to Jowy Ateides I wouldn't say that dual swords is the most cliche weapons for a hero. The modern Final Fantasys have definatley made the single sword the hero's weapon, though in my mind a hero should have weapons that set them apart from others.

[Jowy Atreides]

Yeah, but it doesn't exactly take a lot of creativity to have the hero use a sword.

What Leknaat meant by "unlocked" is that the curse of the Rune of Beginning has been broken; that is, that the bearers of the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes must fight until one bests the other. Now that the curse has been broken, they can be together without squabbling.

[Marintha]

.....and ff9 hero doesnt use 2 daggers, he holds the gaurd thingy that he puts the dagger into it if hes using the dagger.

If you meant the scabbard... i think I might cry...
http://www.geocities.com/quinaquen2003/ ... rance2.jpg
Sorry, just couldn't leave the ff9-ness unfixed...


Back to SII, not only does it break the curse you get to use the full power of the rune. IOW, new rune ability. ^^
I agree on the swords being over used... new weapons are needed. Variety = good.

Riou'd kick luca through a window. All he'd have to do is outmaneuver him, luca'd be too slow in all that armor compared to Riou's lightweight build. Power isn't just about strength. If you hit someone fast enough even with a little strength it'll hurt more than if you just lodge a sledgehammer into them.

Anyone notice nanami's flower rod? That was a new weapon for me... Oro.

[Artificity]

You may argue that Riou can move faster due to his choice of armor but Luca didn't seem to have any difficulty wielding his armor AND taking down a squad of your best men while showing you that he has a surprising amount of tricks up his sleeve. It would take an immense amount of strength (Which Riou does not have early on in the game) to use a blunt weapon to break armor while one flick of the wrist is all it takes to pierce cloth and skin.

Let's look at it objectively. For the sake of argument I'm going to register Riou as being talented with his choice of weapon, capable of immense progress with time and isn't physically weak. But Luca has all of this PLUS years of experience, inhuman strength and drive and is willing to play dirty. I'd surmise that the only point where Riou actually gains enough skill to take down Luca would be after he defeats Han, but even then it wouldn't be a walk in the park.

Luca would easily carve through Riou if only he hadn't been ambushed, but that was the only way they'd be able to take him out. Why speak of honor when war has very little of that?

And on the topic of swords: I've got no problem with protagonists and swords. It makes them easier to identify with and are easier to sell. In the end, it all just boils down to personal aesthetics.

[Liam]

And You recruit your strongest characters after you beat Luca. Georg, Pesmerga, Mazus... Perhaps one of them could take Luca down on his own.

Not so long agoe We had a thread, about who is stronger Luca or Georg, and it never opinions were divided.

If there is one thing for sure, that is that Riou wouldn't take party of 15 to beat Luca if He could do it on his own

[CrowbarSka]

I think basically the 'hero' is an image that the masses cling to whilst helping him fulfill the plans and decisions of his strategists and companions. A "glorified mascot". The strategists themselves are just other people drawn towards this character, it just so happens that their unique skill they have to offer guides the hero in the correct direction. Other characters have different skills such as financial gain (shopkeepers; Chandler, Hans, Adrienne, Tessai, Jeane, etc.) or things to enhance the castle and morale of the army.

This is quite clearly shown by the existence of the Stone Tablets and the 108 Stars of Destiny legend. It is not the hero's ability to lead a war that attracts the people, it's his overwhelming passion and drive to bring peace. He can only do this by highlighting the vast amount of people who also wish for peace and having them rise against oppression that he can succeed.

He is ultimately fated from the start to bring peace, and the other Stars of Destiny are fated to help him.

[Ushiku]

Also whilst we're talking about the Suikoden 2 ending and the Rune of Beginning, what would happen if either Riou or Jowy died whilst the other was still alive and they both still held their respective Runes that are components which make the Rune of Beginning?
Yes Leknaat said that they no longer were cursed to fight each other, but would the other Rune go back to the shrine at Toto or would it go to the holder of the other Rune to create the Rune of Beginning?
I would personally prefer the latter, since they were said to have beaten the curse, however if somebody stumbled across the other half of the Rune, they wouldn't have the same relationship to each other which stopped the curse as when Riou beared the Bright Sheild Rune and Jowy beared the Black Sword Rune.
I personally would love it if and when one of the two die, it is Jowy who becomes the bearer of the Rune of Beginning, he's my favourite Suikoden character and acted on his own instincts in the name of peace, he even said to Riou that they both fight in the name of a peace that will unify the land, but on opposing sides. Which is pretty much true.
I feel that Jowy learned and lost a lot more, he saw treachery of his home nation, and emassed great power politically, physically and magically through his Black Sword Rune. Also he had the relationship with Jilia and Pilika, and all the time he was thinking of them as well as his friendship with Riou, his heart effectively was in the right place. He even refused to allow his archers to kill Riou in front of Pilika at the "peace conference", much to the annoyance of Leon Silverberg.
I believe he has much more political wit than Riou, so he'd be a greater bearer of the Rune of Beginning to judge war, whilst they are both great military leaders, I believe that Jowy is superior politically.

[Destiny Knight]

Maybe you're right,i think it would be more fun if the hero got more choice and change to talk, not like a dumb man... and another one... it's looks like the hero are just doing all the tactician say, and I don't really like that don't you think??

[Silver Dragon Flik]

Maybe you're right,i think it would be more fun if the hero got more choice and change to talk, not like a dumb man... and another one... it's looks like the hero are just doing all the tactician say, and I don't really like that don't you think??

Actually in real history many leaders fell because they ignored the advice of their strategists.

[Celedril]

Strategists usually have many years of training behind them, so no matter how charismatic a leader is, if they don't have that training, they should listen to their strategist. SDFlik is right: You can't just throw guys out on the field and say charge. Maneuvering, logistics, timing, all these aspects of war take a great deal of training, especially in a medieval world where communication takes time and effort. They didn't have radios or walkie-talkies back then, just express messengers on horses. Just keeping up with maneuvers must have been a nightmare. War often was truly a battle of wits, and in Suikoden the hero really has never been trained for strategy. Thus there is no shame in putting military matters in the hands of a strategist. Both have their roles: the strategist plans the battle; the hero executes them.

[xXSqualleoNXx]

That still leaves the Heroes of Suikoden as glorified Mascots though, especially the heroes from 1,2 and 4. At best, they are the Official Recruiters of the Army.

[Ushiku]

Not really since they're still the ones who always fight the enemies, they're always the ones who win the battles and who's courage wins people over to their side, sure a strategist may be smart, but for example Leon Silverberg may be a great strategist, but he's not the most charismatic of all people is he? Sometimes people are drawn to leaders who aren't strategically inclined either due to their shared beliefs or their sense of justice for a cause.