Suikoden Beginnings

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
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Nikisaur
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Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Nikisaur » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:41 pm

There has been a lot of discussion about the ending of games, so I want to talk about the beginnings. As I get older, busier, and have less time for gaming, I find myself wondering what really draws me into an RPG. Some games begin in the middle of the action, and the world is revealed as you go. Some start slowly, with fairly mundane tasks to be carried out while we learn the background of the story and characters.

Seriously though, I just restarted Suikoden 5 to test something someone said on this site, and wow, the beginning is so slow and boring. It's just dialogue and cutscenes you can't skip, bogged down with so much unecessary running around. Right down to the NPCs you talk to who have SO many unecessary lines. I get that it's a new location and we need to know about the society and that but it's so hard to play through when you've done it before.

Suikoden 2, on the other hand, begins in the middle of the action. It doesn't spell everything out in the way Suiko5 does.

So I ask you guys, what is your favourite Suikoden beginning? Do you like having a lot of backstory or just being thrown in the deep end? As well Suikoden, what other RPGs have good/bad beginnings that Suikoden could learn from?
The only thing Suikoden lacks...is dinosaurs.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:20 am

I recently replayed Suikoden IV until you get your ship, and I really don't like it. It feels really rushed and I guess Suikoden V wanted to make up for that. It never takes enough time to build up tension or raise enough interest for what comes next (read: I don't give a sh*t)

I often hear that Suikoden V's introduction is long and boring, but I don't think so. But maybe that's because I haven't played it for a long time. I liked how they slowly start and then at some points speed up, only to slow down a bit again.

Suikoden I's begginning was very simplistic and I guess it's ok for that game. It is a nice introduction to some characters and you get what's going on.

Yeah, Suikoden II starts off really good. You never really know more than Riou and get surprised like he does. I always like to replay the first part.

Suikoden III, well, actually I dont remember how every chapter starts. I only remember Hugos in detail.

Suikoden Tactics also starts off really well. The tutorial battle is fun and.. yeah, thats most important, I guess.

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Nikisaur
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Nikisaur » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:54 am

I just feel that they made it really too long. For example, when you're taking Lym to the Senate Hall, you need to not only see the scene with Euran and Salum Barows (the main reason I think that we go to the senate hall?) but you need to talk to every single person in the building before you're able to advance the story. Yeah you get a lot of background info that way but I dunno. The game doesn't really 'start' for me until you have to escape Sol-Falena. Everything before that is just plot set up stuff for later. Kind of like how in Kingdom Hearts 2 you run around as Roxas for a couple of hours doing not a lot, until you find Sora and the game can begin properly (I actually have a save from just after that point so if I start again I don't have to play through that bit if I don't want to).

I guess it's just when you replay games you start thinking more about how they could have done things differently :)
The only thing Suikoden lacks...is dinosaurs.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby gilgamesh31 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:53 am

:lol: I dread playing through the beggining of Suikoden V, especially the senate hall and stormfist arena. I have a saved file at Rainwall and thats where i usually start from, unless i want to be bored shitless for several hours. I like to have the option of hearing parts that make up the backstory like in the inn at Gregminster in Suikoden where you can hear about the 6 generals if you want, its not inforced like in Suikoden V.

I like starting the game in the deep end and working stuff out. It would be nice to see more branching paths in Suikoden like in Tactics Ogre, where a vital choice near the beggining of the game determines which side you fight for, a chaotic path and a lawfull path. Suikoden II and V touch on this with the fleeing tinto path and defending the castle path but imagine you could choose to fight for either highland or the City States and whatever you choose Jowy did the opposite, it would take alot more work though considering it would be two completly different games in one.

Other games that i think have good begginings are Vandal hearts, Legacy of Kain: Blood omen which throw you into the action pretty much strait away and breath of fire III, although it has a slow start, i just really enjoy playing the start of that game for some unknown reason. Games that i think do not have such a good beggining are Vandal hearts II, the Grandia's, Zelda twilight princess all for the same reason, that the begginings are too slow and too long with little too keep the player intetested. I cant comment on kingdom hearts as ive never played it, what games do you think suikoden could learn from?

The first four Suikoden's start well enough, III's trinity site system was a unique way to convey the first half of that game and i like that you can choose who you would like to play as first. I and IV where a little rushed but those games are much shorter so thats understandable. I would have to say that Suikoden II has the best pace so far. The game just continues to improve the longer you play it.
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Nikisaur
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Nikisaur » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:33 pm

Haha I'm playing Breath of Fire 3 at the moment :) I've always liked the way it begins.

I kinda feel like the beginning of Suikoden 5 is like Suikoden 1 taken to the extreme. Like running around town, doing some missions for the king etc. But that involves dragons/bandits/golems and that, much less dialogue. And when Ted gets angry/offended it's funny, but when Lyon speaks out she's being really rude and inappropriate. Maybe I just hate her character too much, I dunno.
The only thing Suikoden lacks...is dinosaurs.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby gilgamesh31 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:59 am

:lol: Lyon is a square, i like the idea of someone running behind you though it would be much better if you could select which star to follow you. Lyon is really annoying shame you cant not bring her to the final fight, glad that she gets injured and is out of action for a while. Miakis is much more of a character.

Breath of Fire 3 is a massive part of my childhood and along with Alundra and suikoden its in my top 3 RPG games. last time i played i abused the duplicator in the fairy village. I spent ages copying swallows eyes and eventually Garr became my fastest character.

But theres something that really resonates with me about the beggining of that game. up until just after the tournament is my favorite portion of the game. I like the innocence of it all, playing as some weakarse kid and his little mates, becomming local heros of a farm town briefly before Loki changes thier lives forever. I knew there was something about that dude. Its defentely alot more interesting then Suikoden V's snorefest of a beggining, i dont wanna have to spend the first several hours of a game convincing myself to keep playing through it. It was just another of Konami's well thought out ploys to attract new players.
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby eldrasidar » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:43 pm

I would say either 2 or 3. Both of them spend a lot more energy developing the world around them so that the player can see it for themselves, rather than having to be told everything. In particular they placed a lot more detail into the npc's and the areas visited on the map. 4 and 5 in particular were horrible with this. The npc's were essentially faceless blocks, and the towns and villages were very simplistic, which made it hard to be invested in the world at all. 2 and 3 also had better character development for the 108 stars as well, so you didn't feel as overwhelmed by the fact that you had over a hundred people in your headquarters. By the end of either of those games, you felt like you knew all of the stars of destiny. the other games had too many characters that seemed to be there for no reason, and you can easily forget about after you recruit them, since they play no major role in the game.

2 and 3 also it seems to me have much better graphical longevity and integrity. Neither earned a ton of points for their graphics when they came out, but I think both continue to look as good today as they did when they came out, while their competitors, which aimed to be at the cutting edge of graphics, look a lot worse as graphics technology has eclipsed them.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby LadyMikain » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:42 am

whats wrong with Lyon i dont get it? shes looks really cool at the end in her queens knight outfit. plus shes an ex assassin what more do you want? I like the begginings that start you off really weak and you get really strong overtime, like when you play as thomas in suikoden 3. my favorite beggining from suikoden is from 4, where you get to choose who you want to take with you.
I don't regret the decision I made that day. Even now. But...my heart still aches. I..I want to follow my heart. Whether it is right or wrong will be judged by history.-Pahn. Suikoden.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:34 pm

LadyMikain wrote:whats wrong with Lyon i dont get it? shes looks really cool at the end in her queens knight outfit. plus shes an ex assassin what more do you want? I like the begginings that start you off really weak and you get really strong overtime, like when you play as thomas in suikoden 3. my favorite beggining from suikoden is from 4, where you get to choose who you want to take with you.

eah,t hat's nice in 4 but sooo pointless. I so often wondered "Why don't they just make the party like in every Suikoden with 6 people?" Then you coudl have taken all 4 knights and Chiepoo. Would have been cooler imo

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Nikisaur
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Nikisaur » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:49 pm

I agree, I liked the idea of being able to choose who I wanted. I guess it gives you something different to do in another playthrough,which is hard to find in the beginning of games as that tends to be when you have to do the same thing over again.

Lyon. Well...gah. I understand the need for another character to speak, with the whole 'silent protagonist' dealie, but...gah. Personally, I don't like her character design too much and find her voice annoying. But more than that I found that the whole idea of her kind of...off. The way she speaks up all the time, tells the prince what to do, the fact that the Prince would even have a female bodyguard of the same age (who isn't that much stronger than him) seems really unrealistic. Especially with all the talk of trying to keep up an image and stay in the nobles' good books, it just doesn't seem right. Also she bleeds sparkles. Weird.
The only thing Suikoden lacks...is dinosaurs.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Night Shadow » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:00 pm

:lol: she bleeds sparkles indeed.

lyon was always sort of like nanami, except a much more irritating, bossy version of her. and i dont like the fact that they contiunually pushed her to have such a major role in the game. i just wanted her to stick to being a bodyguard, and not a true rune bearer.

back on topic, i like how the first two suikoden starts you off as a rebel with nothing much but the clothes on your back, then you eventually become the biggest bad ass around. there was something magical about being the underdog. i want to see a future suikoden following that same pattern.
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EstrangedIX
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby EstrangedIX » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:20 am

A more irritating, bossy version of Nanami? Noooo! I was able to play a tiny bit of V awhile back before I got my own copy. I only got as far as the arena, so I guess I haven't really experienced much of Lyon's personality. That or I just blocked out the trauma lol

It did seem to take forever though. I loved the pace that II had, and III did a really good job of not seeming too tedious in repeating stuff with the different perspectives. Thomas's chapters were lots of fun and so was getting to know each of the other groups. IV kinda teased like it would take longer to get going, then *poof* you're exiled. The choice of who to take was cool, even if it really didn't make much difference.

Haven't seen anything of Tactics, bit I'm probably going to play it before V.
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Hirathien » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:44 am

If you are going to start playing V, make sure you got plenty of time. The game is slow to get going and it basically copies stuff from Suikoden I and II.

Also, the battles take too long to get going. The characters have to flex for like 10 minutes, urgh.

Decent game though.

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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby eldrasidar » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:28 pm

Suikoden 5 isn't all that long, only about twice as long as suikoden 4, and suikoden 4 was short. It certainly isn't as long as some of the Final Fantasy series. But, yeah there are some pacing issues.
Lyon is annoying, but only more so than Nanami because you have to listen to her terrible voice acting. Just mute the game and listen to music, and the problem is solved.

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Rachael
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Re: Suikoden Beginnings

Postby Rachael » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:05 am

Yeah, I'd agree that V took a ridiculously long time to get off the ground. The fact that you couldn't skip scenes, even after beating the game once, was atrocious. I really don't want to hear "Well, that's the George we all know and love" and "Do you DARE tell me I was wrong?!" 60 times, thanks.

If it weren't for the lack of the ability to skip through scenes, I wouldn't have minded V's opening so much.

As for my favorite beginning, I'd say III. It had just enough exposition to make me interested without getting boring to the point where I started screaming, "When do I get to FIGHT already!?"
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