Canonization of endings

[Antimatzist]

Why did Tinto seperate from the new unified Dunan area (Plus Highland which i think is also part of that country) after suikoden 2?

Because Tinto did not really feel attached to the City-State and the Dunan Republic. That has geographical reasons and political, Tinto is rather autonomous.

But you can't just say "only the best endings are the right endings". The only endings I can think of as false are Riou running away in Tinto (because then, there would be no Dunan Rebublic which is mentioned in Suikoden III) and Riou becoming President (iirc it is said in Suikoden III that teresa is president.. not too sure.)

[snakebite105]

But that means at the very least that the best ending in S2 is the real ending.

I think there is also a pretty good chance that the best ending is also the ending to S1 and I'm not sure if it matters in S3 because it all ends the same.

I don't have all the evidence right now obviously but I think its pretty safe to say S2 had the best ending at the very least.

Really the only ones that I'm thinking may not have had the best endings are S4 and S5 which we'll need another game before we know more about the Island Nations and The Queendom. And personally I don't feel the new people incontrol of the series since S4 have enough forsight over the story to not make the best ending the "real ending"

Mind you right now my argument is only with S2 im gonna need more time to work on the other games as well as a S6 but I just see S1-3 being the best endings because they're a consecutive building story. and S4-5 (and tactics) being the best because of lack of creativity of the new developers as most Jrpgs usually use the same ending.

The only real problem is Konami has neglected the series and since it also takes place in different places all over the world its hard to ever really get a full picture on the aftermath of a precious game.

[Antimatzist]

Really the only ones that I'm thinking may not have had the best endings are S4 and S5 which we'll need another game before we know more about the Island Nations and The Queendom. And personally I don't feel the new people incontrol of the series since S4 have enough forsight over the story to not make the best ending the "real ending"

In S IV, it might speak for the best ending=real ending that youc an use Snowe and Lazlo in Suikoden Tactics... of course, they are totally optional, but still it feels imo like they belong there.

As far as Suikoden V is concerned, there are two "best endings" there and several bad ones. We can't even say that the ending in which the Prince gets killed while in Rainwall is not the "real" thing... Because no other game (yet) has made heavy references to that one.


In Suikoden III, it isn't about the endings, they are all fairly the same, the main thing there is who is the Flame Champion. And all three of them make sense, so no real choice there.

[snakebite105]

As far as carry over data is converned I just assume thats the "real" event I think Suikoden tactics still mentions Lazlo and Snowe's living existance after the prolog even without the carry over data which makes me think that S4 had to have the best ending because otherwise they woulden't be alive.

as for S5 I think that they're going to forget most of the events of this game along with S4.

If they want to continue the main story they need to jump 20+ years into the future which means ignoring everything from S4 and 5. the only way they can keep the games all connected is to create a second line to the story.

While S1-3 events branch this way. 4, Tactics and 5 branch this way and create 2 story arcs for the series since they've basicly abandoned the first.

[Vextor]

You wouldn't get Lazlo or Snowe in Suikoden Tactics unless you upload the best ending data from Suikoden 4 into tactics.

Also, the Tinto Republic separating from the Dunan Republic doesn't really have much bearing on which ending is "true" or not, because Tinto could have separated from the Dunan Republic anyways even if Riou became president of the republic and then quit soon after to be replaced by Teresa. Riou may also have ran away after Tinto gets attacked by Neclord and the Dunan Unification War could have concluded anyhow with Tinto separating from the city states.
There's enough variables to make anything happen plot-wise.

However, you really can't argue against the creators of the series themselves when they say "there is no official ending." Attempting to "prove" them wrong is actually quite stupid.

[snakebite105]

Lazlo and Snowe are referenced as if alive after the prolog within the game even if you cannot recruit them because of lack of saved data.

As for the escape from tinto ending that obviously didn't happen because of the fact that the miltary would have fallen apart without Riou's leadership which is started many times in the game itself there would also have been no one to stop jowy. Not to mention supportive evidence from Suikogaiden Volume 2

its all for the sake of debate I made sure to say that I don't have all the evidence and that they were just assumptions.If you feel the need to insult people because you don't agree with them then do it in private chat theres no need for it in the forum itself.

[Blutiger Engel]

Lazlo and Snowe are referenced as if alive after the prolog within the game even if you cannot recruit them because of lack of saved data.

Is that true? I've only ever played it with the data uploaded so I wouldn't know the dialogue otherwise. What exactly does it say about them?

[snakebite105]

Snowe's mention escapes me right now but it mentions Lazlo hanging around that island in passing. I unfortunately don't have access to a script especially one that doesn't have the saved data on it. On my first time through the game I haden't owned S4 but got it shortly afterwards.

I'm almost positive its on Obel though.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

So that's one - Lazlo's survival may be a more 'canon' ending, then.

Interestingly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Riou, Jowy and Nanami appearing in Suikogaiden...

Gremio does not appear, though, so the canon dispute for SI, III and V rages on. I think Lazlo and Snowe are pretty much hinted at being alive in ST. And Georg has to survive V, so anything that probably leads to his death (The 'Rainwall' ending?) seems pretty non-canonical.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who waits for somebody to say Suikogaiden is non-canon and will then point them to Nash in SIII and hit them with a Flying Squirrel's Bucket.

[Jam-Jul Lison]

Here are my two cents about this.

Suikoden 1: It seems to be Gremio coming back to life happened. I seem to recall Ellie who was in Gremio's place if the data wasn't perfect having mentioned learning to cook from Gremio. Though that could have happened during the war too despite not having seen this character before. I would have to play through the game again for the correct Dialog.

Suikoden 2: The running away ending is obviously not real. If he has run away, Neclord prob would have never been stopped and Tinto would have been destroyed and Lilly would possibly be his Bride. Riou become leader of Dunan is likely and then stepping down later. But I honestly can't see him stepping down if he was willing to accept. I think it is more then likely he still hoped Jowy was still alive and remembered their promise to meet back where it all began. I suppose the ending where he kills Jowy and the runes merge together in to Riou is possible. But considering Riou, Nanami and Jowy all being together in the suikogaiden in a part that takes place later on (from what i heard), it seems more likely that the good ending is the real ending there. Meaning after he refused to stop fighting, the rune of beginning awakened, Jowy was healed and the connection between the 2 halves of the rune became stronger. Possibly giving them the non aging thing that other true runes get. Cause if it had awakened, it would be like the front and back of the gate runes. Each half is half of 1 true rune. I don't see any reason why the same thing couldn't happen with Riou and Jowy. BTW does anyone wonder if Ridley is realy alive or dead? lol

Suikoden 3: In my opinion the new flame Champion should be Hugo. He has the burning spirit of a Karayan warrior. Chris taking on the true water rune that her Father once possessed seems kind of poetic to me and makes sense. Geddoe in my opinion is the least likely person to become the new fire bringer. As we know the true rune typicaly chooses it's host and the True Lightning Rune has been with him for a long time and he has a strong affinity for lightning element. I don't really see him giving up his true lightning rune nor do I see the true lightning rune let him give it up for another true rune. I think people sometimes forget the runes are alive and can pick their host. We certainly saw that happen quite a few times in Suikoden 4 lol. If you notice it went for the strongest host preset at the time when it switched. Decided on Glen over Lazlo, decided Lazlo over Snowe. lol.

Suikoden 4: Well because of Lazlo being mentioned in tactics without the load and him and snow being in the game itself with loading the data, it seems clear to me that the good ending is the correct ending.

Suikoden 5: Can't say much on this one since I haven't played it yet. Still trying to get myself a copy of it. But anything with Georg Prime dieing in it would of course not be correct since he is in Suikoden 2.

After looking over everything. From what I can tell, the good endings (108 stars) are the Canon endings. Though until Konami releases a statement saying so or we get more evidence, I suppose there will always people who will argue that they aren't. lol

[Jeremiah Ecks]

Suikoden 1: It seems to be Gremio coming back to life happened. I seem to recall Ellie who was in Gremio's place if the data wasn't perfect having mentioned learning to cook from Gremio.

You said yourself that's not conclusive. The only deaths which can't be canon here are those who appear in SII, like Lorelai, Pahn, Luc, Lotte, Eileen and others. Gremio isn't necessary to have in SII. As isn't someone like Giovanni or something. No proof, no canon.

Suikoden 2: I suppose the ending where he kills Jowy and the runes merge together in to Riou is possible. But considering Riou, Nanami and Jowy all being together in the suikogaiden in a part that takes place later on (from what i heard), it seems more likely that the good ending is the real ending there. BTW does anyone wonder if Ridley is realy alive or dead? lol

There's a debate elsewhere on these boards about Ridley's 'death'.
In regards to this, this is the only ending you can be 100% sure on. Jowy survives as does Nanami as they do show up later, regardless of save point data. And yes, Suikogaiden is canonical. Again, Nash shows up in SIII.

Suikoden 3: In my opinion the new flame Champion should be Hugo.

Your opinion isn't canon. I think Hugo is the best choice, but he doesn't have to be the choice and until Suikoden IV happens, with the return of Lazlo, Kyril and Yohn all bearing True Runes to fight Hikusaak (isn't it nice being insane?), we'll never know what is truly canon here.

Suikoden 4: Well because of Lazlo being mentioned in tactics without the load and him and snow being in the game itself with loading the data, it seems clear to me that the good ending is the correct ending.

Lazlo is mentioned as a hero, not as being alive. Again, preference, not proof.

Georg can't die in any of the endings in Suiko V, meaning pretty much any of them is up for grabs. And in regards to what Konami claim, there are no 'canon' endings - you have the choice to determine your own 'canon', unless a future game directly contradicts it (i.e. Riou in Suikogaiden, Luc in SII & III, Pahn in II, certain killable characters in Tactics).

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who in his own personal canon, Gremio lives, as do Jowy and Lazlo. Nobody dies in Tactics or V. And the True Flame Champion is actually Geddoe. So hold me, thrill me, kiss me, kill me.

[eldrasidar]

nash showing up in suikoden 3 doesn't make all of suikogaiden canon. only some events from suikogaiden ever get mentioned again which are
viki's teleportation accident that saves Killey and Lorelai(lorelai makes a fuss about it in 5)
nash's fight with Wan/Joker(commented that nash refers to joker as wan, a sign that they previously met)
Nash's involment with Greenhill(jeane mentions seeing nash again in 3, after they both defended greenhil)
young viki(well, she appears again in 3)

any other events of suikogaiden are somewhat suspect, since they are told from Nash's perspective, and he's a fairly decent actor(he is a spy), and is someone who should not be considered a reliable source for his own history, which he is likely to embellish or flat out lie about. also keep in mind that many of the events of suikogaiden are optional, so what is and isn't canon is almost more confusing than the normal suikodens.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

You're, of course, totally right. The story as Nash tells it may or may not be entirely accurate, but I think the creators' intention is that this is a fairly accurate portrayal of what happened.

In regard to Jowy, Nanami etc., the point is Nash doesn't have to meet them on his individual path, sure, but the indication is maybe by going left instead of right doesn't mean they are not on the right path all along. And besides, there is one thing none of the games definitively show - Riou in control of Dunan with Jowy and Nanami dead. The only outcome future games shows at all is Teresa in control of Dunan, with Jowy and Nanami alive.

I think that pretty much seals the 'good' ending for Suiko II as being pretty much definitively canonical, choices for Nash aside.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who doesn't care either way but this is a discussion and it's nice so there.

[EternalOnslaught]

If there is no official canon to the series, does the official manga and novels hold any ground at all? Look at Suikoden III, though in the game it is optional as to who will become the Flame champion, in the game its obvious that Hugo is the chosen one.

[eldrasidar]

do all the various star wars novels have to be canon to that universe? the suikoden 3 manga was a nice supplement, but it was done by a third party with permission. if you limit their artistic license, you get boring books that nobody buys, but if you make their work canon, it kills the development teams artistic creativity.