Canonization of endings

[JanusThePaladin]

I've been thinking. In one thread there has been an argument over what is considered to be canon. In another thread i was looking thru, someone mentioned that in the Suikoden series, there are many endings, but only 1 is considered to be canon. So this got me to thinking.

If we look at each suikoden in sequence we may notice something. If i am wrong, please inform me.

The end of Suikoden 1 is essentially the same no matter what. The only difference is Gremio. No matter what you destroy Gregminster castle, and the Hero disappears before he can become the president.

In Suikoden 2, when referencing S1, they make no mention of Gremio whatsoever. This leads me to believe that the returning of Gremio is not strictly canon. However, if you upload save data with all 108 stars from S1, you recruit Tir, and Gremio appears. If you didnt have the stars, Gremio does not appear. This means that, one way or another, the story continues, but neither ending is truly canon, as the game makes way for either possibility.

In Suikoden 3 they make very little mention of Dunan. The Tinto republic splits from them, and you have the 2 plays, and that is it. Nothing in S3 really states what is considered to be the canon ending of S2, because nothing in S3 shows Jowy or Riou or Nanami ever again. This would lead me to believe that any of the 3 endings to S2 could be considered canon.

S4 makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to previous games, with the exception of the return of Viki and Jeane. However, regardless of how you end S4, Tactics makes way for either ending.

S5 makes no real references to any of the goings on after S4, from what happens to Lazlo, to even mentioning the fall of the kooluk empire. this would mean that regardless of how S4 ends, either ending can be considered canon.

So what i'm saying is what Konami has said all along. There is no canon ending to any of the games, its all up to the player and what s/he considers to be the ending, and therefore, all the different endings, from Gremio still being dead, to Riou leading the Dunan Republic, to Chris being the new flame champion, to Lazlo dying and drifting out to sea, to Frey going off on adventures with Georg, are all canon.

[snakebite105]

So what are you trying to discuss?

I'm sure if they decide to bring back all the characters like

Gremio
Jowy
Lyon
Lazlo

there may be more. WHen they want to bring them back they will regardless of what one may hope for, It will probably only be for cameo purposes similar to Tir in Suikoden 2.

If they're dead they'll probably never mention it again. If they arn't then theres a chance of a cameo in the future similar to Tir.

I'd like to think at the very least Tir and Gremio both took some part in the Dunan unification war. If it can be viewed in a sequal thats more then enough reason for me to think the 108 best ending happend.

[JanusThePaladin]

So what i'm saying is what Konami has said all along. There is no canon ending to any of the games, its all up to the player and what s/he considers to be the ending, and therefore, all the different endings, from Gremio still being dead, to Riou leading the Dunan Republic, to Chris being the new flame champion, to Lazlo dying and drifting out to sea, to Frey going off on adventures with Georg, are all canon.

this would be what i'm trying to discuss.

[Blutiger Engel]

I've always assumed that the 108 stars ending was canon. Sure, the bonuses of 108 stars may be strictly in gameplay, but with the novelizations and such (correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't know Japanese) it seems as though they follow the 108 stars path and ending.

[JanusThePaladin]

Thats my point though. Thats what we all assume that the 108 stars is the official ending, however, like i said, there is no evidence whatsoever to support that claim.

[snakebite105]

Right so every argument can never be proven true until we find out more.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

[JanusThePaladin]

that is not what i am saying. there are definites in every suikoden that have to be taken as fact. however, none of the endings are canon. It is a fact that Riou and Jowy were at opposite sides during the Dunan Unification War, however, it is not a fact that they fought each other after the way was over and that Riou killed Jowy. Or it is a fact, but so is the ending where they do not battle, and run off with Nanami, AND the ending where Riou decides to become the Dunan president.

[Vextor]

The only canonical thing is Konami's insistence that none of the endings are canonical.

[JanusThePaladin]

Thank you Vextor. That is what i am trying to say. Heres the evidence to back it.

[Raww Le Klueze]

You're going to have a hard time convincing the Vatican that any of the endings are deserving of becoming saints.

[JanusThePaladin]

And in comes Raww with a clever pun! let us all applaud!

[Iesous]

And in comes Raww with a clever pun! let us all applaud!

I actually thought it was pretty good. I was also wondering how many people would have it fly right over their heads. I'm glad that at least you, the topic creator, caught it.

[JanusThePaladin]

yes, i'm relatively sure that there is a better word for what i was trying to say, and that i generated this word out of no where. I was saying it was bad, i was more trying to imply that the pun has nothing to do with the topic

[patapi]

Konami has been very clever for not committing to anything specific in these titles; be it the endings, the names or the Flame Champion successor. Although, we see people adopting whatever were used in the novel when referencing the unnamed protagonists (original post included), so it is not unreasonable to extend this to cover the endings featured in those derivative works as well.

Why disprove one but accept the other?

[snakebite105]

I have a question pertaining to this conversation.

Why did Tinto seperate from the new unified Dunan area (Plus Highland which i think is also part of that country) after suikoden 2?


I thought Tinto's reason for seperating was because Riou was not leading the new Dunan country. If thats the case then only the best ending can have happend (Saving Jowy, and Nanami going on a journy not uniting the rune etc etc) because in the other endings Riou led the new country and Tinto was all for it in the ending.

If I'm right in this assumption this would also mean in my opinion that what konami says about their endings is nonsense and that Only the best endings are true. I know its a bit of a leap to say ALL the best endings are the only endings but it would discredit Konami's previous statement.

Really all anyone would need to do is prove them wrong on 2 occations and one can assume all the best endings are true. or at the very least that Konami is lieing.

The only real difference between the 2 suikoden 1 endings is wether Gremio is alive or dead and I don't see it being all that big of a deal if he does live.

I think its safe to say that Tir showing up in Suikoden 2 did happen storyline wise because its just loading the data even if it is optional that is always the outcome. Its not like he decided to travel somewhere else instead Kasumi still asks to go to Banner village for "Some reason" regardless if he's there or not. Implying that even if you can't recruit him he's still there.

and for the first game you'd think that being the first that only the best ending would be true anyway makeing Gremio alive.


I'm sure there are more questions that I could think of that could discredit Konami's previous statement.