If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

[Rezard]

Zegai would probably win the sacred games.

While gameplay aspects can be used to calculate how stong a character is, we should use this aspect only if the plot of the game doesnt give us more info. And I have to say, the plot of SV portrait Zegai as a monster, see his third Oboro investigation:

#3: A few years ago, he was out on a hunt when he barely crossed Falena´s border. He got arrested for looking "shady," but they say it took over 100 soldiers to get him. That caught Barows´ eye, and he decided to take Zegai in as a gladiator.

The man is a monster who can take hundreds of soldiers, while Richard and the others are strong, Zegai is in a completely different level, he is on the Georg fighting level. I think he could take Richard or Belcoot on easily. The fact that he was chosen to train your troops should be a good hint of how strong he is.

Actually, two-handed swords have been used historically to trump spear wielders. The double soldiers of the Landsknecht knights were pretty well known for this.

I dont think it is a good point to bring real story facts to prove something in a fictional game, but just to be fair:
- two-handed swords troops were used to defeat spear formations, it was troops vs troops. It is very different from individual fighting, where it is one spear user vs one sword user. The heavy sword was used to break armor, Richard would (for example) have an advantage, since he could hit many times while Belcoot would lose his balance for swinging something so heavy. The same aplies to Zegai vs Belcoot.

If you look only on the weapon people use, Hanna (who uses sword and shield) would be the strongest suikoden character and we all know that's not true.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

Nah, Hanna can beat Luca Blight one-on-one.



Aaaaaanyway, being serious for a second...

I don't think there's anything wrong with using the logic of those knights to determine how to beat certain people. Belcoot is an experienced gladiator and would inevitably have fought other gladiators with spears. Whether he can beat Zegai with a spear is another matter.

You mentioned that Zegai is 'chosen to train the troops' like Georg is, and ironically it's something a lot of people defending Zegai haven't touched upon, and yet it's pretty intrinsic. The fact is if Zerase and Levi are the ultimate magicians for the Falenan Army, then Zegai and Georg are the ultimate fighters, who also train up both Belcoot and Richard.

I still prefer Belcoot to Zegai, simply because of Belcoot's experience, calmness and thought. They would be in an equal one-on-one situation, and I think what gave Zegai advantage against the 100-men was that he was in his own element.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who thinks his defence of Richard has fallen so far apart now it lies in tatters.

[Iesous]

Actually, bringing up levi hurts the argument for zegai. Levi is not at all the strongest mage. Jeane, Viki, Eresh, and Zerase are all better magicians. Apparently being the instructor doesn't mean you're the best. And it doesn't make sense to say that gameplay stats shouldn't be considered and then use a gameplay mechanism to say that because someone teaches, they must be the best. There are lots of people who can teach/coach/direct but can't perform as one of the best.

[Rezard]

I don't think there's anything wrong with using the logic of those knights to determine how to beat certain people. Belcoot is an experienced gladiator and would inevitably have fought other gladiators with spears. Whether he can beat Zegai with a spear is another matter.

Actualy Belcoot was a poor gladiator, see another one of Oboro's investigations:

#2: Believe it or not, as good as he is now, he was a pretty lousy gladiator back in the day. That´s why no one knew who he was when he appeared in the Sacred Games.

I think all his experience comes from training in Kanakan. Even so, I am sure he knew how to fight spears.

Actually, bringing up levi hurts the argument for zegai. Levi is not at all the strongest mage. Jeane, Viki, Eresh, and Zerase are all better magicians. Apparently being the instructor doesn't mean you're the best. And it doesn't make sense to say that gameplay stats shouldn't be considered and then use a gameplay mechanism to say that because someone teaches, they must be the best. There are lots of people who can teach/coach/direct but can't perform as one of the best.

I am not saying gameplay stats shouldnt be considered, I am saying they shouldnt be considered first. First you consider the plot elements, then the gameplay aspects.
It is like Georg, who is portrayed as super strong in Suikogaiden, and cant be considered weaker than Viktor, even if his stats are better on level 50. (dont know if his stats are better, I am just giving an example)

Dont know if Levi is really weaker than those characters, especially Viki and Eresh.

[Icegryphon]

I am saying gameplay stats shouldn't be considered though. Gameplay stats are a gameplay mechanic. We're discussing "reality" here, what would actually happen in reality if those guys all fought one on one in a tournament. Gameplay stats have no place in that kind of discussion. For instance, look at HP, arguably the most important stat in any game. HP doesn't exist in real life because if you get shot/set on fire/stabbed, you die, you don't lose a portion of some mysterious HP. HP is a made up quantity that makes RPGs work.

So yes, gameplay stats have no place in this discussion. Should go by things people say, like Belcoot saying Richard's better or Oburo saying he was a bad gladiator, and things like what weapons they use and what we saw them do in storyline sequences.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

Well, is Zegai and the others training the party a 'gameplay' mechanic thing, or a 'story' thing? Because I consider it a 'story' thing based on the fact that just because you can train someone, doesn't make you a better fighter than the person under you.

I think the points that these investigations that Rez makes are quite valid -- if Belcoot was a sucky gladiator, he was sucky. Whether he's improved or not. He does strike me as the type of person dedicated to a passion.

So what is the majority vote then? Most people seem to think that Zegai would win?

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who still thinks that Childerich is deader than disco.

[JanusThePaladin]

The idea that you shouldnt use gameplay mechanics in a discussion over who is more powerful is as rediculous as the idea that you shouldnt use real life logic to argue a theory in a story set in fantasy. Gameplay mechanics are all we have to allow us to compare characters, obviously if a character is intended to be powerful, the games mechanics would likewise represent that. Like Luca Blight taking on 18 people. Thats a gameplay mechanic, but obviously what happened to represent how powerful he is. If a character is intended to be powerful, would they give him bad stats? No. Logically speaking, you need to use gameplay mechanics to decide strength.

If you want to argue HP, i would also point out the the more physically hearty characters have a higher amount of HP while the less physically hearty characters have lower HP. Compare frontline sword wielders and soldiers vs mages. Mages study and avoid physical labor, where as your average soldier has to fight and therefore be more hearty. Logic dictates a necessity of gameplay mechanics.

If someone is an extremely powerful mage, storywise, would he have a really high Strength stat? Most likely not. If someone is a front line warrior who has studied with a blade his entire life and never touched a rune, would you expect him to have a high magic stat? No.

In closing, stats have to play a large role in deciding and comparing characters.

[Icegryphon]

Stats do not have a large part. The makers of the game manipulate stats to make the game more balanced, and the battles easier. In "real life" if you get slashed, you die. However, they put that aside and give people HP, which is one of the main stats, and is absolutely and completely "Fictional" in all aspects.

If you're going to use stats in the discussion then you have to use HP as well, so what are you going to say? "Well, Belcoot has more HP so when Zegai sticks him in the gut with his spear, he'll be fine cause he has so much HP"...no, you can't do that because HP doesn't exist in a "reality" discussion such as this. Since you can't use HP, you can't use any of the stats for the same reason.

[JanusThePaladin]

Hp is used to show how physically hearty a character is. It is intended to show that a character can take a hit and keep on coming. In actualuality you cannot attach a number to something like that, however, i'm sure you've heard of people who get hit and keep fighting? Its not like in a fight you immediately lose as soon as someone punches you in the face. You keep going. You dont have HP but you do have a certain point of resistance that your body can fight to before you collapse. Thats what HP is used to represent, the body's level of tolerance of strike and pains. Now can you take a sword to the gut and keep on going until you take 8 more? Probably not, though there are plenty of stories about people who have done likewise incredible acts during battle. So HP is an exaggeration yes, but not an any less valid stat in a character's strength. To take the only thing we have to give us information about a character's strength and to disregard it because you don't like it is simply preposterous.

[Iesous]

Reminder for this discussion:
This is not a discussion on who would win in a back alley. Nor who would win in a forest. Nor who would win on a battle field. Now who would win at checkers. This is a discussion of who would win in Lymsleia's sacred games if no one cheats. The rules of the game include not using magic, not using any type of drug, and not using sharp blades. Therefore, there will be no stabbing of the gut. It is indeed more like boxing. Thus, HP represents a fighter's stamina, like Janus is saying. (And if you'll notice, I did include HP in my 'stats' argument.)

For this particular discussion (and probably most others), if you don't include stats and only use 'plot' elements, the discussion breaks down into subjectivity. "Belcoot says he would lose to Richard." "I think Belcoot was just being humble." "Zegai beat a hundred guys." "Zegai was in his natural element." "Zegai beat Childerich." "The practice round wasn't taken seriously by Gizel/Childerich." I will freely admit that I, along with everyone else, am part of this subjectivity. Which is why I listed out the stats and skills of the playable characters. The discussion is a waste of time if all we have to consider are each of our subjective interpretations of what people say and do. Might as well say, "We'll all think someone different and there's no way to prove who's right." If that's the path you want to take, fine. Then the discussion's over and the mods can lock the thread. I really don't care either way.

[Rezard]

For this particular discussion (and probably most others), if you don't include stats and only use 'plot' elements, the discussion breaks down into subjectivity.

Really. This isnt math you know, where A + B = C. This is the story from a fictional game, to me a form of art. Do you think you can understand art without some subjectivity? Of course we shouldnt go as far as "Belcoot is stronger cause I think so", but as long there are info gave by the game and personal motivaded interpretation, the arguments are valid and should be considered.
If you forbid any form of subjectivity, then this entire forum is pointless.

Also your "stat math" is subjective too. Why level 50? How do you know that all characters have the same level? Since when does average out from stats is the best reflection from a character fighting level? Is there no room for specialists?

This matter is very clear to me, lets see a list of Zegai feats:
- defeated over one hundred Barows soldiers
- defeated Childerich
- held off Dolph, the game's last "human" Boss
- train other troops like George(who is clamed to be the best swordman on the suikoden world), which shows a experienced and calm figther
- is ugly as hell, unpopular among fans

Now Richards:
- has a reputation as a very good swordman (we never see him do anything notable though)
- is a pretty bishonen, popular among fans

Now Belcoot:
- same as Richard, reputation as a very good swordman (never see him do anything notable too)
- also is a pretty bishonen, popular among fans

Now you see, it is not hard to understand why we are having this argument with each other. To me it can't be more obvious that Zegai is stronger than the other two, but they are popular and fans like then. Now it is objective math, of course people will favor the charaters they like more, and I've not heard any conclusive argument yet on why Belcoot or Richard could best Zegai.

Based on this argument and on what others posted, it is like this to me: Zegai > Belcoot = Richard

[Icegryphon]

HP shows how "physically hearty" a character is? What does that even mean? Are you talking stamina? Then you're wrong. Because ninjas have less HP than front line tanks, but I guarantee you a ninja has just as much if not more stamina than that tank. If you mean they can take more hits than another character, again, you're wrong, because if you get hit by a weapon, you're dead, no matter how much "physical heartiness" you have. The only way you'll survive someone's blow to you in a fight in real life is by evading/parrying/dodging/blocking a blow. The only way you can survive a hit from an attack is by ALMOST blocking/parrying/evading/dodging so that it grazes you, but again, how much it hits you is dependent on those four things. And those four things have nothing to do with HP, they have to do with agility, dexterity, speed, etc...

As I said, HP has absolutely no meaning in real life.

[JanusThePaladin]

So, if i punch you in the face as hard as i possibly can, you're going to die?

[Icegryphon]

Depends on where you punch. However, if you slash me with a sword on my torso...I'm going to die regardless of HP. And since this discussion is about two guys with two handed swords, a guy with a spear and a guy with two daggers...that's what counts.

[Iesous]

The weapons are all dull! I've said this like three times in this thread now.