If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

[Belcoot4]

I can see this didn't sink in all the way. What I meant with Gizel was that because none of the contestants were magic users, the fact that magic couldn't be used, and that all of the contestants were physicaly dominating he had to find a way to get each one out to assure Childerich's sucess. I'm not saying he planned the whole thing from the start but as each round went he found an answer to fix the fight. Since Zegai was so impressive in the sparring match he made sure he was gone before the games even started. I know that he didn't delibertly set Zegai up with the Armes soldiers but either way the soldiers would have been discovered even if Zegai was there or not. And because of Zegai's background they would have found out that he has Armes blood. About Belcoot, I do think he gave Richard praises out of his own modesty. Lets look at this abroad, they call Belcoot the "Kanakan Swordsman" "trained by Master Haia" I don't think some third string mercenary, as skilled as he is, would have any chance against Belcoot. Let me retract that statment, Belcoot may not be faster than Childerich but Belcoot would be more of a balanced fighter with a two handed sword and very defensive. Childerich with his two daggers would leave himself open either way if he struck left hand or right. Again with Zegai I do agree that a spear or quarterstaff has an innate advantage but as you seen when Zegai sparred with Childerich if he misses with the heavy end of that spear once Belcoot is taking his head off. Also with a sword you can move quite freely in all directions a spearmans only advantage are north and south movements, make them go latteral and they open themselves right up. Not that it really matters but I have a blackbelt in Tae Kwan Do and we trained with an assortment of weapons and all of them have their advantages and disadvantages but anything two handed is a better defensive weapon. And one more thing about Richard, no matter how skilled he is the lack of confindence he has in himself will lead him to doom anyway. Lets see Childerich has a killer mentality, Zegai a warriors, and Belcoot is like a knight. Richard just isn't mature or ready for anybody of these sorts I'd like to see Richard and Hazuki thats more on his level.

[Icegryphon]

Hmm I forgot about Belcoot being so badass...maybe so. I just don't see Belcoot as the type of person to blow smoke up someone else's ass.

As far as a spear user...the reason they have the ability to beat a sword fighter is they have huge range and can use both sides of the spear as well as the middle. You don't use huge thrusts against the sword user. You go on the defensive, make the sword user tire himself out while using little jabs with both ends to harry your opponent, then go in for the kill.

Trust me, quarterstaff/spear beats a sword fighter any day of the week and twice on sunday (given equalish skill)

[The fighting 108]

If the whole plot with the Sun Rune, the Godwins, and game mechanics were taken out of the loop, I think Belcoot would stand the best chance of winning. Why? Because it would make for a better story. Belcoot had an actual reason to be in those games thats just saturated in melodrama and hardship. You could easily design a story based on his flight from Falena, his trials in Kanakan, and his eventual return to set things right. He'd be the one the story is centered around and everyone else would be the NPCs to add flavor.

[Belcoot4]

This was more of a tactical comparison. Nobody wins anything because its makes a better story sounds like the Order lol. predetermined... If he won it would have his own merit and skill and it seems as things have been going so far most think Zegai could come out on top. Its all hypothetical.

[Icegryphon]

Well I've made the best argument so that's why Zegai's on top. ^_~

[The fighting 108]

Hmm I forgot about Belcoot being so badass...maybe so. I just don't see Belcoot as the type of person to blow smoke up someone else's ass.

As far as a spear user...the reason they have the ability to beat a sword fighter is they have huge range and can use both sides of the spear as well as the middle. You don't use huge thrusts against the sword user. You go on the defensive, make the sword user tire himself out while using little jabs with both ends to harry your opponent, then go in for the kill.

Trust me, quarterstaff/spear beats a sword fighter any day of the week and twice on sunday (given equalish skill)

Actually, two-handed swords have been used historically to trump spear wielders. The double soldiers of the Landsknecht knights were pretty well known for this. The two handed sword can easily parry the business end of the spear by going for the haft, and up close you can use both ends of the sword, or half sword your weapon to take the spear wielder out in close quarters. Heck, you don't even have to go that far, just a quick twist of the hips after the parry will send the blade into the pikeman. The only real thing the spear has going for it is that it's much more intuitive to use. But in a battle between two trained warriors, that type of advantage is lost.

From a dueling perspectives, Childerich and Richard probably have the greatest advantage since their light weight blades work best on lightly armored foes on a one on one scenario where as Belcoots and Zegai's weapons are made for a more practical battlefield use where durability and synergy with allies is more of a concern.

In the end though, I'll have to say Richard would probably win the day if all other things are equal. This is really his style of combat, one on one with lightly armored foes on a level playing field where he can use his foot work to it's greatest effect and not worry about working around chinks in his opponents armor. Belcoot and Zegai is a toss up, both have similar disadvantages in an arena fight. They still have a leg up on Childerich who, as an assassin, is deprived of his biggest weapons, surprise and terror. Really Childerich would best them all in a dark alley after the celebration, but on a one on one fair fight? That's just not an assassin's game.

[Icegryphon]

Yeah, someone using it as a spear with only the business end who goes in for crazy opening thrusts would get their butts kicked by a 2 hander.

[Iesous]

I can't speak for all of the combat tactics like you guys are talking about. All I know is what is said in the game and how they perform in battle. (Interpreting whether Belcoot was just being modest or completely honest is way too difficult to do. Plus, Richard isn't just some third string mercenary; he's the blade master for the entire brigade. The only way I can see a bunch of [probably experienced] soldiers learning from an 18 year-old kid is if he's a freakin prodigy.) And part of the performance is stats.

This is from the Brady Games strategy guide. They have stats for all characters at level 50.

HP
Belcoot: 641
Richard:353
Zegai: 520

Weapon
Belcoot: 255
Richard: 230
Zegai: 250

Strength
Belcoot: 270
Richard: 265
Zegai: 324

Skill
Belcoot: 309
Richard: 373
Zegai:255

Evade
Belcoot: 152
Richard: 265
Zegai: 152

Physical Defense
Belcoot: 50
Richard: 50
Zegai: 54

Speed
Belcoot: 152
Richard: 216
Zegai: 103

Luck
Belcoot: 54
Richard: 103
Zegai: 103

Skills

Stamina
Belcoot: A
Richard: A
Zegai: S

Attack
Belcoot: A
Richard: SS
Zegai: S

Defense
Belcoot: A
Richard: A
Zegai: A

Technique
Belcoot: A
Richard: SS
Zegai: A

Vitality
Belcoot: A
Richard: S
Zegai: A

Agility
Belcoot: S
Richard: S
Zegai: A

Now I know that you can't equip all the skills at once, but the highest level that can be achieved shows you what the game creators were thinking when they were coming up with how strong and how good of fighters they would be. Physical Defense and Defense can be thrown out because they're equal. You might even be able to disregard Weapon since all contestants use dull weapons.

Now, just for fun, come up with a scoring system. 9 points awarded in each category. 5 points for first, 3 points for second, 1 point for third. 4 points each for a first place tie, and 2 points each for a second place tie. Numbers within 5-10 points of each other are a tie.

Belcoot: 27 points
Richard: 43 points
Zegai: 29 points

I know this isn't exactly scientific. But it does give you an idea of just how skilled of a fighter Richard is. I actually proved myself a little bit wrong. Early in the thread I said that I would rate them as Zegai<Childerich<Belcoot<Richard. This suggests to me that Belcoot and Zegai are roughly equal. I would then also decide that Childerich is about equal to both of them. But then, if Richard can just stay away from candy, all of them would get their asses handed to them.

[Icegryphon]

Lol, he went all out on us didn't he?

[Belcoot4]

this is just me looking a little deeper into the topic, regaurdless who anyone thinks could have won, how do you think any of these guys would have done against Ferid?

[The fighting 108]

this is just me looking a little deeper into the topic, regaurdless who anyone thinks could have won, how do you think any of these guys would have done against Ferid?

That's a tough one, how does one rate a guy that only fought in a cut scene?

[Jeremiah Ecks]

We never know how strong a fighter Ferid is, except my reputation. Now Georg on the other hand...

My suspicion is that Richard would have won the tournament for an assortment of reasons. I'll split it up this way:

For Childerich: Nothing much. He gets his butt handed to him by Zegai, and you can defeat him and Dolf earlier in the game if you really want to. He doesn't really pose much of a threat to me, and no reason to say he can win. Plus he couldn't use Dark Arkanum to power up like he does when you fight him later.
Against Childerich: Everything, really. Both Belcoot and Zegai are presented as his superiors and Belcoot, even drugged, manages to survive for a minute against him. So I don't think Chil has any reason to make it.

For Zegai: He seems to defeat Childerich in a one-on-one. Maybe this is a feint, but if it's a feint, then why not just have Childerich dispense Zegai for real if Childerich can do it. Especially after fighting and testing his foe out. It takes trickery, not strength or poison to take Zegai out. Zegai has also proven himself able of training others in the arts as combat, as formidably as Georg Prime, and also as others have pointed out, he does have a spear, giving him range and some massive advantages.
Against Zegai: His spear isn't the fastest of weapons, and he isn't the fastest of fighters. By the time he blinks, Richard and Belcoot have already passed a chunk of his defence. Whether they can make their hits work is debateable, but they are both strong enough to hang with Zegai whilst Zegai's speed severely lets him down. He also doesn't have the formal training that either Belcoot or Richard possess, and whilst that makes Zegai unpredictable, it doesn't make him skilful. And skill beats brawn any day.

For Belcoot: Experience, experience, experience. Belcoot is such a massive fighter, with extensive gladiatorial participation, that even Ferid earmarked Belcoot out as a likely winner. He must be quite experienced in fighting against spears - negating possibly Zegai's strongest advantage - and also is more confident than Richard, giving Belcoot a coolness and an edge that isn't immediate apparent. Add to this the insane strength, skill and speed of the man, which averages out above any of the other combatants, and you've got massive advantages. And I'm not even starting on Roundier Haia's training, which was obviously exceptional. Don't rule out the Falcon Rune, which in of itself is an exceptionally deadly weapon - I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned it.

I'll post more on Belcoot's weaknesses, and why Richard will win later, when I'm not at work.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who thinks it would be close, either way.

[Icegryphon]

I don't really know if we can take a lot of that into account when we talk about who would have won the game.

Saying you can defeat Childerich and Dolf early in the game can't be taken into account because they're purposely made easy in order to allow you to defeat them if you want. It's kind of like how Viktor and Flik are level 60+ in Suikoden 1 when you beat it and only level 20+ when you get them in Suikoden 2. They didn't get worse, and it's not as if everyone in Dunan is way more powerful than those in Toran...it's just a game mechanic to make the gameplay work.

This thread is definitely a completely "Who do you think is coolest?" kind of thread as there is no solid evidence for anyone.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

*Considers what IceGryphon said about Childerich*
Sure, fine. I get that. But the point then stands - does Childerich even defeat or threaten ANYone? Even Roy beats him.

Anyway, back onto Belcoot:

Against Belcoot: Not much it has to be said. He's a bit slower than Childerich and Richard, but his pure skill and strength make up for that. His calmness and collectedness keeps him in control enough to not lose his head. The only real weaknesses I can think of is his attachment to Marina. If he considered for a second that Marina's heart would be broken by his actions in the games, he might hesitate, but let's face it, Bel's too dim to think about that.

Huh. I'm trying to argue for Richard, but I'm really arguing for Belcoot...

Ahh, well, my work breaks over again. I'm going to sway and pick Belcoot instead now that I'm actually THINKING about it.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who prefers Richard over all three others, though.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

So finally, Richard (sigh).

For Richard: Skill, skill, skill. Richard is so insanely skilled (a natural?) with a sword it's unbelievable. And that's at his current age, he hasn't even peaked yet. He's very quick and his strength isn't anything to frown at. Because of his youth and general presence, it's easy to dismiss him as a 'child' and I think Zegai and Childerich both would underestimate Richard. Of course, Belcoot has his opponent's strength's mapped out already... Because of this, I think Richard would hold a lot of advantages, that and I think even though Belcoot is usually quite calm, internally he already has Richard mapped out as a better swordsman than he, and I think that would shake up Bel's confidence a little.

Against Richard: His Mueller worship could easily distract him from the task at hand - if he's worried about impressing Mueller or something. Also working against Richard is his own lack of confidence - if he's not sure, he could hesitate at key moments, and if he's unsure he may not be able to work around Zegai's spear at all. And whilst I dismissed Zegai's spear earlier in the speed mechanics, whilst Richard is blindingly fast, if he does hesitate due to fear, Zegai has him, whupped and dusted.
A lot of Richard's advantages lie in the fact that his opponents will underestimate him, and the fact that he can throw off about four to five hits before they can breathe, but once this ace is used up, Richard's going to have to struggle with himself considerably.
In regards to experience, whilst Mueller and Wilhelm have trained Richard, there's no evidence they are as legendary as Roundier Haia and therefore, Belcoot whups Richard in this league. Plus, to give Childerich a little props, he does have his own training as part of Nether Regions or whatever they're called. So Belcoot's experience will have taught him to take out any kinds of opponent, even including one whose natural talent eclipses his.

Heh heh, I set out to defend Richard, but I think Belcoot, on paper, has this made.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who still prefers Richard as a character to use.