If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
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Jeremiah Ecks
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Jeremiah Ecks »

More's the point, no matter what Oboro reports about Zegai, the fact is that no less authority than Ferid has Belcoot, not Zegai, down as winner for the tournament. Also, Ferid would have seen the same evidence we have done for Zegai winning.

Compounding the issue is that the royal family seem to be spending a lot of time with Belcoot, seeing as they at least feel comfortable around him -- indicating a suspicion that he's going to win. By that point, Zegai's out of the equation, sure, but still...

What I'm surprised at is that nobody has optioned Shoon for winning. I like Shoon, it's a shame you get him so late in the game to be almost useless. :(

You can't just throw out 'Zegai beat 100 people' as a stone-cold fact when you don't know a) how he did it, b) the context of the thing and c) whether Oboro's information is even 100% correct, or derived from legend. I find it surprising nobody else points out Zegais pedigree in the games, including Euram who would surely show off such a statistic? Maybe it's a rumour that Oboro is commenting?

Plus, you talk about records... none of these three guys has a stone-cold proven record in the one-on-one arena against guys of their own pedigree. Belcoot has it, but he was rubbish until he went off to train. Richard is untested. Zegai might be hot stuff against nameless soldiers, but these ain't nameless soldiers, these are gladiators, who have trained to take big guys like Zegai down. They are prepared for him. At least Belcoot would be, from his past games experience.

I'm not saying you're wrong and that Zegai wouldn't win, but your reasoning for Zegai winning doesn't quite cut the mustard.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wants Jeff Hardy to be champion again and for David Tennant to stay being the Doctor. So there.
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i-heart-percival
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by i-heart-percival »

I can say that stat wise when you get Belcoot and when you get Richard, then Richard hands down would have kicked some major ass in the tourney, but plot-wise and everything, I think Belcoot would have been the winner...this is very difficult based on how each person likes whichever characters i suppose, but I think the best winner would have been Belcoot because of what he wanted for Falena, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO Childerich had to win cuz Gizel Godwin is cheating bastard lmao...and if Zegai won, then Euram Barows...damn, i don't even wanna know how messed up Falena would have been lmao
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FliktorForce5
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by FliktorForce5 »

I want to call attention to a point that's been brought up a few times, but not really explored, and that is the psychology of the fighters in question. Essentially we can argue till we're all blue in the face over who has more skill, or the more appropriate weapon, or the training and endurance necessary to win but ultimately any argument can (and probably by now, has) been countered. Two-handed and arming swords have been known to beat out polearms before, but likewise polearms do definitely have advantages over two-handed and arming swords. As to two-handers vs. arming swords, well really it all depends on your swordsman in that case as well. I think it's safe to say we're ruling out Childrich as a major contender for victory by now, so I'm just going to leave out his bizarre katar(?)/drunken master kung-fu style and just say he gets beat.

That leaves us with three highly skilled fighters that several arguments could be put forth for a theoretical victor. We’ve seen those argued into the ground and back and several good points have been argued for each fighter’s case. But we still don’t have a clear winner. So, assuming all fighters have an equal footing and valid advantages over one another that they can exploit over one another, my question is this, who would fight the hardest? Of these three fighters who wants it the most?

Zegai fights for cash. Plain and simple. Heck, he doesn’t even seem all that disappointed that he gets disqualified. He’s simply not going to give the games his all. It’s not like when he had to out fight or out think 100 men bent on killing him. I mean he’s not even in any real danger in the arena, where they’re using blunted blades and healing the contestants before every match. He’s not going to be fighting at 100% and I think that’s going to be a major Achilles’ heel for him. Against a fighter of equal skill and some fire in his eyes I just don’t see Zegai coming out on top.

Richard fights for glory. To test himself against the best to prove that he is the best. The issue of confidence brought up earlier is a valid one, but it’s kind of alarming what an arena packed with thousands of people screaming your name can do for your confidence. As mentioned before he’s a fan favorite, there’s no reason to assume he wouldn’t also be a crowd favorite for the same reasons. As he carves a reputation for himself out of the hides of lesser opponents his confidence is only going to grow. Until he gets to the finals where I think he’ll realize that this plan of his wasn’t really all that well thought through. Richard wants to prove himself to Meuller and the rest of the Lindwurm Mercs. He doesn’t really want to be royalty, let alone marry someone he’s never even met before. If he wins the tournament his entire life is mapped out and it suddenly doesn’t include Meuller or Lindwurm or any of the things he’s actually fighting for. I think he’d get to the finals, get cold feet and forfeit the match. Unless, of course, someone talked him out of it. I’m thinking it would have to be a combination of the royals and Mueller himself to do it. Even then it’s a fight that puts him out of a safety zone and thus away from his element. He couldn’t afford that kind of second guessing against an opponent like Zegai or Belcoot. I think in the end Richard defeats himself.

Belcoot fights for justice. Or at least a political change that he perceives as justice. The gladiator/slavery system stole his childhood, his life. It’s his life’s goal to wipe an idea and way of life from a nation. It’s the stuff wars are fought over. People die by the hundreds to support or condemn ideals like this. Belcoot has fire, drive, and skill. He’s the only contender who would give the tournament 100% and more all the way to it’s grizzly end. The only way I can see him losing that edge is if Marina confesses her love and Belcoot actually realizes what she means to him, but his determination leaves him a bit single minded and let’s face it, Marina would rather poison his food than confess her feelings. I don’t think it’s likely to happen.

Three amazing fighters, but I have to give this one to Belcoot either by forfeit, or apathy I think the Killer from Kanakaan walks away with the prize in these sacred games.
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blah1017
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by blah1017 »

FliktorForce5 wrote:I want to call attention to a point that's been brought up a few times, but not really explored, and that is the psychology of the fighters in question. Essentially we can argue till we're all blue in the face over who has more skill, or the more appropriate weapon, or the training and endurance necessary to win but ultimately any argument can (and probably by now, has) been countered. Two-handed and arming swords have been known to beat out polearms before, but likewise polearms do definitely have advantages over two-handed and arming swords. As to two-handers vs. arming swords, well really it all depends on your swordsman in that case as well. I think it's safe to say we're ruling out Childrich as a major contender for victory by now, so I'm just going to leave out his bizarre katar(?)/drunken master kung-fu style and just say he gets beat.

That leaves us with three highly skilled fighters that several arguments could be put forth for a theoretical victor. We’ve seen those argued into the ground and back and several good points have been argued for each fighter’s case. But we still don’t have a clear winner. So, assuming all fighters have an equal footing and valid advantages over one another that they can exploit over one another, my question is this, who would fight the hardest? Of these three fighters who wants it the most?

Zegai fights for cash. Plain and simple. Heck, he doesn’t even seem all that disappointed that he gets disqualified. He’s simply not going to give the games his all. It’s not like when he had to out fight or out think 100 men bent on killing him. I mean he’s not even in any real danger in the arena, where they’re using blunted blades and healing the contestants before every match. He’s not going to be fighting at 100% and I think that’s going to be a major Achilles’ heel for him. Against a fighter of equal skill and some fire in his eyes I just don’t see Zegai coming out on top.

Richard fights for glory. To test himself against the best to prove that he is the best. The issue of confidence brought up earlier is a valid one, but it’s kind of alarming what an arena packed with thousands of people screaming your name can do for your confidence. As mentioned before he’s a fan favorite, there’s no reason to assume he wouldn’t also be a crowd favorite for the same reasons. As he carves a reputation for himself out of the hides of lesser opponents his confidence is only going to grow. Until he gets to the finals where I think he’ll realize that this plan of his wasn’t really all that well thought through. Richard wants to prove himself to Meuller and the rest of the Lindwurm Mercs. He doesn’t really want to be royalty, let alone marry someone he’s never even met before. If he wins the tournament his entire life is mapped out and it suddenly doesn’t include Meuller or Lindwurm or any of the things he’s actually fighting for. I think he’d get to the finals, get cold feet and forfeit the match. Unless, of course, someone talked him out of it. I’m thinking it would have to be a combination of the royals and Mueller himself to do it. Even then it’s a fight that puts him out of a safety zone and thus away from his element. He couldn’t afford that kind of second guessing against an opponent like Zegai or Belcoot. I think in the end Richard defeats himself.

Belcoot fights for justice. Or at least a political change that he perceives as justice. The gladiator/slavery system stole his childhood, his life. It’s his life’s goal to wipe an idea and way of life from a nation. It’s the stuff wars are fought over. People die by the hundreds to support or condemn ideals like this. Belcoot has fire, drive, and skill. He’s the only contender who would give the tournament 100% and more all the way to it’s grizzly end. The only way I can see him losing that edge is if Marina confesses her love and Belcoot actually realizes what she means to him, but his determination leaves him a bit single minded and let’s face it, Marina would rather poison his food than confess her feelings. I don’t think it’s likely to happen.

Three amazing fighters, but I have to give this one to Belcoot either by forfeit, or apathy I think the Killer from Kanakaan walks away with the prize in these sacred games.
Those are some good points, but wouldn't Zegai fighting for cash be more of a reason for him to fight harder?

If he loses, he doesn't get paid. He wouldn't come to mess around and lose, he would come to win, because that's how he's getting his paycheck.
JanusThePaladin
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by JanusThePaladin »

i dont think so. he was a slave/gladiator. I severely doubt the aristocracy would give money to slaves in order to watch them fight.
blah1017
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by blah1017 »

JanusThePaladin wrote:i dont think so. he was a slave/gladiator. I severely doubt the aristocracy would give money to slaves in order to watch them fight.
Actually, yeah you're right, I completely forgot about that.

He's not a hired gun at all.
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FliktorForce5
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by FliktorForce5 »

Well, I always got the impression that Zegai had fought his way out of slavery. I mean if he was property at the border "a few years back" then he would have never have been suspect for anything. I think at the point when the game starts Zegai is technically freed but because of the nature of the slavery/gladiator system he really has no skills other than killing people. As such he probably hires himself out as something of a champion-for-hire for the highest bidder. At least that's what I always assumed, as it made the most sense, otherwise Oboro's investigations would pretty much consist of "Well he was a slave until <insert stuff that already happened from the game here>" which is obviously not the case. If Zegai were a slave still than he would never have had the opportunity to kill 100 men off-screen as his presence would have been easily explained by his owner who wouldn't have been far away at any given time (I mean would you let as valuable, or dangerous, a commodity from your sight for long?) I think Zegai is free but as I said he really has no other skills to present the world other than killing folks. I mean could you imagine him as an inkeeper?
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Simply put my argument is that if Zegai is going to have as varied a back-story as he does he has to be free to do so, and if that's the case, than he takes contract fights at contract rates. Meaning he takes a certain overhead to assume responsibility for a fight and then a bonus based on how well he places in each event. Like any contract fighter he wouldn’t start with a base rate of nothing for accepting any fight. If anything I think the Barrows faction would have over-paid him and that truly explains his general apathy over being DQ’ed so early on in the tournament. I mean if his base line has already been filled, why does he need to worry about bonus pay? That was always a give and take situation anyway. Never really a sure thing. Plus the Barrows faction is the one most likely to over-pay a gladiator, because really what do they know about gladiatorial combat? Salum, Euram, nor Luserina are the type to follow that sort of thing closely at all, so it’s safe to assume they really don’t know what they’re doing nor exactly who they’re hiring. I mean it’s realistic to assume that they themselves are relying on Oboro’s investigations.
My point is that Zegai’s backstory doesn’t make much sense if he’s not a free agent, but the fact that he’s free and still fighting in the arena just gives more fuel to Belcoot’s fire as it’s proof that even in the highest stages the people subjected to the gladiator systen can never truly be free of it.
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JanusThePaladin
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by JanusThePaladin »

thats a lot of assumption dude. it seems simpler that he was on the border, he's from an enemy nation, so he was arrested and thrown in jail, then sold off as a slave.
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FliktorForce5
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by FliktorForce5 »

You're right Janus that really is a lot of assumptions on my part. So let's go with Zegai being a slave. My question still stands, what's going through his mind? How badly does he want to win this fight? Well, in the actual course of events in the game he's accused of treason, told he's going to be beheaded and locked in a creepy blood-stained cell for three days and it's only after some one else finds out he's innocent that he actually says anything about it to anyone. He seems a tad disillusioned with life if you ask me.

Slave or contract fighter, I think my initial assessment still stands. Zegai doesn't care about who wins the sacred games. Either way, it's just another job to him and he's not going to be giving the fight everything he's got. Get a fighter with comparable skill and a reason to win and I think Zegai's done for.
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Tenko5
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Tenko5 »

Jeremiah Ecks wrote:More's the point, no matter what Oboro reports about Zegai, the fact is that no less authority than Ferid has Belcoot, not Zegai, down as winner for the tournament. Also, Ferid would have seen the same evidence we have done for Zegai winning.
You seem to forget that Ferid didnt show up in the city till the day of the games. Zegai was already in jail by than and Ferid never sees him till he frees him from jail. The only person who did see him that was a knight and could tell how strong he was would be georg. And, I dont see this conversation going on
Georg: "Yeah, that Belcoot looks goods, but you should've seen that fighter that Burrows had. I think he would've won."
Ferid: "Alright, after today's match family trip with me and Arshtart and the rest of the knights down to see this fighter (whose in the dungeon)."
So, that's why you can't really say that Ferid wouldn't have picked Zegai as the winner or even that georg who said his stance was perfect didn't pick him as the winner. But, since he was disqualified he wouldn't even bring Zegai into his mind to think if Belcoot could lose.
Also, here's a question if they're using blunt weapons like everyone says why did the prince (or Ferid) stop the match before chil hit Belcoot? I mean sure they aren't heartless but bam Belcoot gets hit and wakes up in the infirmarmy big deal. Also, why would Zegai a cold killer (he killed 100 people) stop his blade that he knows his dull from just whacking chil and not giving him a little love tap?
Also, Zegai is a proud warrior he doesn't care if he's fighting for his life or for a free drink (assuming he drinks). He's not going to lose. His reasoning to join your party (besides owing his life which he sees as repaid) his that he might find worthy oppents. He would see Belcoot (who we all assume would crush Childerich) as then the best test at the sacred games. Which means he goes "hey i beat this guy I might really be the strongest fighter in the world." So I don't see Zegai's motivation as a point against i see it for him.
Lastly, I think we have to take stats into account (except for hp which would be so far exggertated to be useful). You can see what kind of fighters they are meant to be. Zegai is a powerhouse. He lines up for one swipe of his weapon one kill. Richard on the other hand is looking to batter his oppent with skill and speed till they collapse. Belcoot is kind of a combo not as strong as Zegai and not as fast as Richard. But, his first match against that hammer dude shows he fights like Zegai and georg one swipe one kill. So, he uses his speed and strength to dodge and than put his enemy down. Using this comparsion i think its a toss up. I think Belcoot vs Richard would go like this Richard moves quickly at Belcoot who makes him miss and down goes Richard. But Richard vs. Zegai would go like Zegai sets up for a composed fighter thinking logically all fighters hired for these games are composed (like Belcoot or Chil) and doesnt expect the frenzy that is Richard. Nor, can he defend quickly enough with his spear against Richard's blinding speed, Richard wins. Zegai vs Belcoot would be much like Zegai vs. Childerch longer and more skilled oriented. Belcoot would be looking for an opening that would never come and therefore has to go on the offensive. Zegai would be ready for this and would be able to counter attack, Zegai wins. So, i see it like rock, paper, scissors. Also, for any bias you're looking for i find all three to be kick butt fighters that are almost always in my party.
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Belcoot4 »

I don't think they were using blunt weapons in the Sacred Games. When the princess was stressing out about all of the violence in front of her I think Miakis just said that to her to make her feel better and not to worry. They were definitly using real weapons because theres no way Belcoot was dropping that giant Jinku by hitting him in the lower body with a dull blade and I believe Childerich tore up a purple twohanded swordsman and he clearly looked close to dead laying on the ground like that.
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Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Iesous »

If you're going to assume that she was lying when there is no evidence for such an interpretation, then there's no sense in talking about the games. You have to assume that characters are telling the truth when they talk, or it will be impossible to have any kind of Knowledge. Without Knowledge, the game sucks. You need Knowledge and Truth to have a good story.
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