If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
Icegryphon
Banned User
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:20 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Icegryphon »

What I'm saying is...it doesn't matter. HP means nothing in real life...which is what this thread is about. The proof is that if you get hit by a sharp edge, you die, no matter how much "HP" you have. And since you can kill someone in battle with a fist as easily as a sword (in RPGs) which proves, again, that HP is a fictitious value that has absolutely no correlation in real life.
"You got whacked because you're weak." - Magus
The fighting 108
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by The fighting 108 »

Rezard wrote: This matter is very clear to me, lets see a list of Zegai feats:
- defeated over one hundred Barows soldiers
- defeated Childerich
- held off Dolph, the game's last "human" Boss
- train other troops like George(who is clamed to be the best swordman on the suikoden world), which shows a experienced and calm figther
- is ugly as hell, unpopular among fans
It's not nearly that clear as you seem to think. For one, any of the three can challenge Childerich to a duel and defeat him, so that bullet is kinda moot.

You mentioned that he held off Dolph, but as I remember, Kyle was there as well and he didn't have to hold him off for long as Kyle blasted them with his water rune and enabled everyone's escape. Also, just because he was there to hold him off, doesn't mean the other two couldn't have done the same if the situation arose.

You mentioned his training ability, but in the game that's sort of a hindrance as one of his two skill slots is always taken up by the combat tutor ability. Also the logic here is sort of faulty. If the ability to teach and direct was that key, then the NFL should fire all their players and let the coaches play instead.

His victory over 100 Barrows soldiers is the strongest argument, but the details are still vague. Was this a stand up fight of him vs. 100, or was he trying to get away and fighting small skirmishes all along the border? And again, just because he preformed this feat, in no way implies that the other two couldn't.

Ultimately, I think this is a question that will boil down to favoritism as it's impossible to answer otherwise, unless we unlock the games fighting mechanic and perform a 1000 pvp battles to get some type of statistical array.

The only thing we know is... Gavaya sure as hell didn't stand a chance.
Icegryphon
Banned User
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:20 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Icegryphon »

And another thing, even if he killed 100 at the same time...read The Princess Bride...you use different tactics against multiple guys as one guy.
"You got whacked because you're weak." - Magus
Rezard
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Rezard »

I see that the_fighting created some "observations" on my list of Zegai feats, I could have a long argument on why Childerich was defeated by Zegai at the start of the games (not the end of the war), on why the game developers and the royals choose Zegai to help at Sol Falena, on why the tutor stat is just a stat or on why defeating lot of enemies is a proof of skill, but I will make a different approach.
The fighting 108 wrote:His victory over 100 Barrows soldiers is the strongest argument, but the details are still vague.
Why do you want details? You want to discredit his victory, dont you? It is like you wish konami gave you details so you could conclude his victory was due to luck or some mistake from the Barrows part, or that he simply won by tactics and not skill (what I think the Ice means, since I didnt read the book). Or simply assume the unlikely without any details (which is worse).
Do you see you are being biased? It is hard to be impartial all the time, but I think one can conclude easily out of what wrote in the last topic that Zegai is the strongest, even if some of us want the more populars Belcoot and Richard to come on top.

It is like Ieosus, who choose to compare Zegai to Levi and not to George. It is like if I can compare to equal things (physical trainers), I choose to compare different things (physical trainers to magical trainers). Why is that? Only to make Zegai look weaker than he really is, comparing Zegai to George (which would be fair) would make him strong.

I still think this matter is clear even with your observations, since Zegai has feats of streght, while the other two have none.
Iesous
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:44 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Iesous »

The reason I compared Zegai to Levi was not to say that he was weak. My point is that, just because someone is a trainer, does not make them the strongest. They are a little different (Magical vs. Physical), but yours and other people's argument is that being a teacher demonstrates that he is a stronger/better fighter. Levi is a demonstration that being a teacher does make that person the best. Zegai is still an amazing fighter, and he still could be the best, but being the teacher can in no way prove it.
I still think this matter is clear even with your observations, since Zegai has feats of streght, while the other two have none.
You cannot back up this claim. Just because the game doesn't reveal Richard's or Belcoot's feats, does not mean that they have none.

Also, I never said to ignore plot elements and just look at stats. But you can't just ignore the stats. You talk about other people being biased, but ignoring the fact that one of the characters is overwhelmingly better in skills and stats (which the game creators created) than the others demonstrates a pretty strong bias.

The question is not whether these fighters are strong. And no one here is saying that Zegai or Belcoot or Richard is a weakling. The purpose of this discussion is to compare the fighters.

My bottomline is that the game creators made Richard much more skilled than Zegai and Belcoot. I feel like the stats are the best way to make the comparison between these excellent fighters. However, it seems like we won't come to an agreement.
The fighting 108
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by The fighting 108 »

Rezard wrote: Why do you want details? You want to discredit his victory, dont you? It is like you wish konami gave you details so you could conclude his victory was due to luck or some mistake from the Barrows part, or that he simply won by tactics and not skill (what I think the Ice means, since I didnt read the book). Or simply assume the unlikely without any details (which is worse).
Do you see you are being biased? It is hard to be impartial all the time, but I think one can conclude easily out of what wrote in the last topic that Zegai is the strongest, even if some of us want the more populars Belcoot and Richard to come on top.
Bias has nothing to do with it, you're claiming Zegai is the best based on events that the other characters didn't participate in. Unless they can't pull of the same feat under the same conditions, then the argument is a moot point. It's like claiming to be the fastest runner in the world and never giving anyone else the chance to race you.

Do you want to replicate the battle between Zegai vs. 100 with Belcoot or Richard? Then how about take them to Lunas where the Godwin soldiers always appear. See if they can't kill 100 without help from the rest of the party (put the rest in the entourage or what ever).For more accuracy, leave them at the level you find them with no upgrades or purchased armor (though maybe buy Zegai something other then the slave gear, he was probably better equipped prior to capture. Fur clothes is a good match for a nomadic hunter.)
Rezard wrote: It is like Ieosus, who choose to compare Zegai to Levi and not to George. It is like if I can compare to equal things (physical trainers), I choose to compare different things (physical trainers to magical trainers). Why is that? Only to make Zegai look weaker than he really is, comparing Zegai to George (which would be fair) would make him strong.
Last time I checked, Levi is one of the most powerful magic users in the game, outclassed only by Zerase (who's unique rune should take her out of the running as it's an advantage that can't be matched). Is that bad company to be in?
Rezard wrote: I still think this matter is clear even with your observations, since Zegai has feats of streght, while the other two have none.
Just because they aren't stated as having any, doesn't mean they aren't capable of pulling it off. You claim that everyone is biased, but you're the one claiming, "Zegai did this, and no one else ever can because the designers didn't write it into the back story." Now is that fair?
Jeremiah Ecks
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:48 am
Location: Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Jeremiah Ecks »

I think it's fair to bring up the 100 men incident in Zegai's case because no matter how he did it (all at once, or little skirmishes, or one-at-a-time), he did indeed do it. And Oboro isn't the type of person to flatter. Zegai did it and he's badass and I think that the story speaks for itself.

The question stands whether Belcoot and Richard can overcome that power (we'll leave Childerich out of this for now, shall we? :) ). I think Belcoot can based off of his experience, whilst Richard naturally has the talent but may eventually just fall to Zegai due to lack of confidence and experience. Zegai would be fearsome in combat, absolutely like a raging bear, giving no quarter or hesitation. If Belcoot has been trained by Roundier Haia to take out spear-wielders like Zegai, then it's a done deal as far as I'm concerned - stats slightly favour Belcoot, and he was everybody's favourite to win anyway.

Don't forget that no matter how much Zegai impresses everybody, it's Belcoot who Ferid is impressed by. Georg too, really. They of all people have Belcoot pegged as their winner.

I mean, anyway, this debate's difficult because all four combatants could, in theory, beat all of the other three given the right set of circumstances. With being in the wilderness, with guile on his side, Zegai wins hands down. In a straightforward one-on-one in a ring, Belcoot has it. With confidence and experience, Richard. And, like what happens in the game, with trickery and deceit, Childerich. I don't think it merely comes down to whom you find 'coolest' because I prefer Richard to Belcoot... but I do have to admit I'm no real fan of Zegai nor Childerich.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who thinks this is a fascinating debate but doesn't want flames to start, either. o_O
"Everything is something, but nothing is everything."
The fighting 108
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by The fighting 108 »

Jeremiah Ecks wrote:I think it's fair to bring up the 100 men incident in Zegai's case because no matter how he did it (all at once, or little skirmishes, or one-at-a-time), he did indeed do it. And Oboro isn't the type of person to flatter. Zegai did it and he's badass and I think that the story speaks for itself.
No one's saying that he didn't do it, and that it wasn't impressive. What's being argued is does it matter if the the other two have the potential to do the same thing? Can Belcoot or Richard take down 100 Barrows soldier?

Also, after thinking about it, the 100 men couldn't have been all at once. If it was, then Zegai wouldn't need 100 other guys with him on the large map battles, he'd be a unit all to himself! You'd just drop him in a group and let him go to town on enemy infantry!
Rezard
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Rezard »

I can only argue about what the game says, I don't know what about the game doesnt say.

What I can say is that you cant presume what's exceptional, like would you believe me if I say I can run 100 meters in 10 seconds (the record is 9.65). You wouldnt believe me, even if I was the fatest racer in my city. For you to believe you would have to see me run. The fastest man in the world is Usain Bolt, even if there is someone faster hidden somewhere. If they want to take his record, they have to run and prove it. While we dont see then run, it is Bolt's record.

It is the same with Richard and Belcoot, they didnt prove to be exceptional, so how can I assume they are?
In this case we have to go by the rule: they are as strong as their position. Are they capitains? So they are as strong as Seed and Culgan, as Flik and Viktor, as Camus and Miklotov, etc.

You can never presume the extraordinary: I am not a olympic racer until proven otherwhise. We should always presume the ordinary, the common. So as long there is any new information (be in manga, novels, interviews, etc...), I cant agree with you.

It doesnt matter if the fastest person in your city didnt race Bolt, I will believe they are not as fast as him until they do race him and win. I think this is the most logical answer.
The fighting 108
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by The fighting 108 »

Rezard wrote: It doesnt matter if the fastest person in your city didnt race Bolt, I will believe they are not as fast as him until they do race him and win. I think this is the most logical answer.
How ever this is different, all three have a shot at proving themselves as all three exist in this game. So if you had a shot a claiming this record, would you never take it? Suppose you did challenge the fastest man in the world, and he turned you down to preserve his record. Would you think thats fair? Suppose you asked the Guinness book of World Records to record your time, and they refused, and anyone that had any clout wouldn't give you the chance to prove you are the fastest man in the world, how would you feel then? That's sort of what your doing. You're not even giving them the chance to prove themselves based on what you know from their backgrounds. Take all three to Lunas as I suggested and see who preforms better against the endless Godwin soldiers there.

Edit by Op - please trim your quotes rather than bolding a section of them, thanks.
Rezard
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Rezard »

I dont have much to add from what I already said, but I'll reply to you one more time.
Suppose you did challenge the fastest man in the world, and he turned you down to preserve his record. Would you think thats fair? Suppose you asked the Guinness book of World Records to record your time, and they refused, and anyone that had any clout wouldn't give you the chance to prove you are the fastest man in the world, how would you feel then? That's sort of what your doing.
If that was the case, I would need conclusive evidence that I could beat him, otherwise I cant say I am faster than him. Note that both Belcoot and Richard dont have any conclusive evidence pointing out they can do what Zegai can. You can level any character and take then to Lunas if you wish. Does that means all characters can win the sacred games? Is our arguing pointless?

I stand for what I already said, it proves Zegai strong and we can only presume others to be as strong if the game says so or if there is solid evindence. You cannot take the extraordinary as a rule, as something common, that anyone can do it.

I think Zegai already reached his top power, but Belcoot and Richard are still training, they have potencial to get stronger as they get more fighting experience, but for now they are weaker than Zegai, by the plot at least.
The fighting 108
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by The fighting 108 »

But they aren't weaker in the beginning by any stretch of the imagination. You seem to be pinning your whole argument on this foot note as though it gave credence to the notion that one of the games rather unspectacular fighters could accomplish an upset. Just because Belcoot and Richard had the fortune to not be singled out for looking suspicious does not support your claim that Zegai is stronger. Just because they don't have any 'feats strength' in Oboro's investigations, does not mean they are incapable of doing it.

If you want to defend your whole argument using plot with nothing related to the game's mechanics (which definitely do not support the claim that Zegai is stronger), then my initial observation still stands that Belcoot would win as it makes for a better story. Do you really think any writer would make Zegai, who was fighting on the behalf of a total incompetent, triumph over Belcoot's altruistic goal of abolishing the Gladiator system? His victory over 100 just makes it even more epic when he is defeated by Belcoot.
Rezard
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by Rezard »

The fighting 108 wrote:Just because they don't have any 'feats strength' in Oboro's investigations, does not mean they are incapable of doing it.
It also doesnt mean that they are capable of doing it. Do you have any proof they can do it? No? Than Zegai is the only one of the three who can.
The fighting 108 wrote:If you want to defend your whole argument using plot with nothing related to the game's mechanics (which definitely do not support the claim that Zegai is stronger), then my initial observation still stands that Belcoot would win as it makes for a better story.
Better story? That's not a valid criteria, the point of the topic is who would win, not who would be cooler to win.
And also, that is highly subjective, others may thing otherwise, like Gavaya winning would make a great comedy show, Zegai a drama, Belcoot a action and Childerich a Suikoden Game.
JanusThePaladin
Posts: 710
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:02 am
Location: Under your bed, planning your intricate death...
Contact:

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by JanusThePaladin »

The question here isnt who is stronger. the question is who will win. those are not necessarily the same things. In strength, which is measurable, it has already been proven that Richard is the strongest of the 4 via game mechanics. If you want to argue with that you can, but until you give me something to disprove the game mechanics as viable, i'll simply ignore you.

However, if you look at who would win, not only do you have to look at raw power, but you also need to look at stamina (which is, in my view, the purpose of the HP stat), past accomplishments and history, and overall desire to win.

I'll let some of you adress this before i do.
The fighting 108
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:26 am

Re: If the Sacred Games were never tainted...

Post by The fighting 108 »

Rezard wrote: It also doesnt mean that they are capable of doing it. Do you have any proof they can do it? No? Than Zegai is the only one of the three who can.
Yes I do, for I have played the game and used all three characters. It's obvious that Zegai is rather lacking when it comes to how he fights when compared to the other two. Right from the moment they join your party, with out any leveling, Zegai is the most lack luster of the three choices. He's slower, has one open skill slot, rather in-accurate in his attacks, and will never attack more than once (if he has, I've seriously yet to see him do it). That, if anything, is a much clearer indicator of who the game designers considered to be the strongest, and who in fact is the strongest.

Just because you accomplished something great in the past, doesn't mean you are invincible against an unknown newcomer, just like how Goliath was an invincible warrior prior to taking on right between the eyes from a lowly shepherd.
Post Reply