Luc/Sasarai theories

[patapi]

If the rumour that the manga adaptation was closely based on what Suikoden III plot should have been, we did see Luc and Sasarai being born as human babies.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

As much as it galls me to say it... it's not in the game, so it's not exactly truly 'A-Canon' is it?

If they were born as babies, though... how the heck do you think Hikusaak managed to get them to keep their True Runes in control? Insane!

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who thinks that the first time you said 'no' to them, they'd obliterate Harmonia.

[Lemmy Claypool]

As much as it galls me to say it... it's not in the game, so it's not exactly truly 'A-Canon' is it?

It's about as canon as we'll ever get.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

As much as it galls me to say it... it's not in the game, so it's not exactly truly 'A-Canon' is it?

It's about as canon as we'll ever get.

Not really. If it's not in the game, it's not exclusive A-List canon, is it?

But I haven't played SIII to know what is said - I just know what others say and it seems pretty much universally accepted that Luc and Sasarai are born with their Runes. Which is a crazy theory, but it seems to be what it is.

Maybe they were artificially aged - again, like Spider-Man and his Clones - and therefore, yeah, they were born as babies but within maybe days or perhaps even hours, they got up to their 14 year old state.

All speculation, unfortunately, but we're not going to get better explanation than what we've got now, so...

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wonders if there is a True Charm Rune and maybe it's what Jeane has, heh heh heh...

[Blutiger Engel]

[Manga spoilers, if anyone cares]

Well, I know like you all have said the Manga isn't canon, but it does show Luc and Sasarai aging normally for a few frames (like 5-8 years old or so in one scene). They weren't aware of their runes then, which is why they didn't go out of control. Also, the brothers were separated- Luc was locked up since his rune was wrapped within his heart and they said it would take over him later on, so they confined him until they could get a better clone (which never happened). Eventually Leknaat rescues and takes care of Luc, and that's how he learns of the rune and Sasarai, and why he knew who Sasarai was in SII when they first met but Sasarai was clueless.

[Iesous]

Finally, someone gives evidence about their aging. I've been reading over and over again that they age, and the only evidence I've ever seen anyone give is that their portraits look older between the three games, which is a terrible argument since the artists and art styles change and you can't base anything off of that. Thank you blutigengel and Patapi for telling us poor people who have never seen the manga what is shown in the manga. Especially thank you to Blut for going into detail.

I am going to assume that the manga art style is consistently the same and that you can definitely see a difference between Luc and Sasarai at age 8 versus later on in the events of S3. Up until this point, I haven't seen anyone come out and say that we know they age because we've seen them age across one single art-style.

And Jeremiah, the manga has to be accepted as authoritative if their is going to be any grounds for discussion. The games do not go into enough depth and Konami is never going to go back and make another game or expansion or whatever to clarify the question. They don't need to; because they published a manga. They already answered the question. If I can't read the manga, I just have to trust someone who can and has.

[Jeremiah Ecks]

Finally, someone gives evidence about their aging. I've been reading over and over again that they age, and the only evidence I've ever seen anyone give is that their portraits look older between the three games, which is a terrible argument since the artists and art styles change and you can't base anything off of that. Thank you blutigengel and Patapi for telling us poor people who have never seen the manga what is shown in the manga. Especially thank you to Blut for going into detail. .

I don't want to push the issue of whether they age because of the look on their portraits because like you say that doesn't water-tightly prove the issue.
However, I do find it odd that nobody comments on Luc not aging between SI and SII. Leknaat is known to have a True Rune by participants in both wars, plus she's mysterious anyway. Luc is simply portrayed as a wildly powerful magician, but nothing Crowley and Mazus eclipse in terms of natural talent. Essentially, my point is that nobody finds Luc's 'not aging' and the powers at his disposal strange, considering nobody but Leknaat knows he has a True Rune.
But nobody would comment or find anything strange if Luc looked like he was aging...

Also, most users of True Runes - or purely 'mysterious characters', their ages aren't ever given by investigators but, unless my memory deceives me, Richmond was able to figure out Luc's age - presumably then, he just looked 'normal', hence 'normal aging'.

One argument we haven't seen for Luc looking the same (hence not aging) is why he sees the need to use a mask as the Masked Bishop - if he ages, he'd age a lot during his teens. Yes, he'd be recognisable but not quite the same. So maybe he looks exactly the same in SIII as he did in earlier installments, hence the need to use a mask at all.

And Jeremiah, the manga has to be accepted as authoritative if their is going to be any grounds for discussion. The games do not go into enough depth and Konami is never going to go back and make another game or expansion or whatever to clarify the question. They don't need to; because they published a manga. They already answered the question. If I can't read the manga, I just have to trust someone who can and has.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with the mangas or taking stuff from them, but the mangas for each story also contradict elements from the games in the name of storytelling!!! Does that mean the mangas have priorty over what we see because they were there for Konami to embellish, or improve their story?

I think the general concensus is that the games do seem to imply that Luc and Sasarai age... but also it creates continuity problems in its wake. If Luc and Sas appear to age in that, why did they need to explain Ted's aging problems in SIV?

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wants the True Rune of Continuity Loopholing.

[Iesous]

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with the mangas or taking stuff from them, but the mangas for each story also contradict elements from the games in the name of storytelling!!! Does that mean the mangas have priorty over what we see because they were there for Konami to embellish, or improve their story?

I think the general concensus is that the games do seem to imply that Luc and Sasarai age... but also it creates continuity problems in its wake. If Luc and Sas appear to age in that, why did they need to explain Ted's aging problems in SIV?

I don't see how the manga are contradicting the games in this situation. The games never say whether or not they age. There's nothing to contradict.

In the opening of S4, they show us lots of scenes from the past (Obel queen using the rune, Brandeau and Kika fighting together, etc.). One of those scenes shows Ted on top of a cliff and looking down at the Fog Ship. They are showing Ted finding the Fog Ship for the first time. Ted looks exactly as he does later on in the game, not like he's 6 years old. I know that his character pages both on Suikosource and Gensopedia say that his time spent on the Fog ship allowed him to age, but unless they have some source other than the game, I don't think that this has to be necessarily the case. He still could/would have aged, but it would have been aging above and beyond the 'ideal age' that the True Rune aged him to, in my opinion.

[JanusThePaladin]

While on the subject of Ted, doesnt the Guide offer Lazlo immortality if he gives him his rune? I seem to remember hearing that and thinking "Why take that deal when the rune will give it to you anyway?" It was stated that Ted lost the Rune for 10 years before S4 came out.

Anyway, back on topic. Luc and Sasarai age. But they were unconcious of their Runes presence. Could that lack of knowledge be part of why they age?

[Raww Le Klueze]

While on the subject of Ted, doesnt the Guide offer Lazlo immortality if he gives him his rune? I seem to remember hearing that and thinking "Why take that deal when the rune will give it to you anyway?"

In the case of Ted, not having the added bonus of the rune feeding off the deaths of your loved ones probably was a key factor. Not having to see the memories of it was probably nice too.

As for Lazlo, the problem with his agelessness-inducing rune is that it kills you if you use it.

[Icegryphon]

See I personally wish my best friend had the soul eater. I'd like to think that when I die I became a cool and powerful magical spell for him. That's just me "shrug"

[JanusThePaladin]

Cmon guys. Off subject. Back to Luc and Sasarai please

[Jeremiah Ecks]

I don't see how the manga are contradicting the games in this situation. The games never say whether or not they age. There's nothing to contradict.

In the opening of S4, they show us lots of scenes from the past (Obel queen using the rune, Brandeau and Kika fighting together, etc.). One of those scenes shows Ted on top of a cliff and looking down at the Fog Ship. They are showing Ted finding the Fog Ship for the first time. Ted looks exactly as he does later on in the game, not like he's 6 years old. I know that his character pages both on Suikosource and Gensopedia say that his time spent on the Fog ship allowed him to age, but unless they have some source other than the game, I don't think that this has to be necessarily the case. He still could/would have aged, but it would have been aging above and beyond the 'ideal age' that the True Rune aged him to, in my opinion.

The magnas contradict the games in other situations (particulars about Riou's background, certain characters recruited and certain characters not), just for reasons of artistic licence, which is fair transporting one art form to another. But what I'm saying is one doesn't necessarily validate - or invalidate - the other.

And yeah, the Ted thing's slightly off topic but Ted's got his back to the Fog Ship and he's not around any other characters - how do we know this isn't '6 year old' Ted? He could just be really small and still childish.

Back on topic... well, yeah, I think I've said it. The mangas are a nice flavouring to the overall pie but if they seem to contradict the game series has to come first. If you can prove internally in the narrative (and not the art style) of the game that Luc and Sasarai do not physically age, then the mangas are incorrect. If you can't prove it, then the mangas have more credence and it makes sense that they aged from baby to adult.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who asks, WhY sO SeRiOuS?