True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
JanusThePaladin
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by JanusThePaladin »

But why would you assume the ability to stop time is akin to the ability to reverse it?
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Icegryphon »

I never said the ability to stop time was akin to the ability to reverse it. You're really not reading my posts at all are you?
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LanceHeart
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by LanceHeart »

The more I read, the less I get what's going on.

Wasn't it officially confirmed as early as Suikoden and Suikoden II that True Runes give their bearers agelessness, not regenerative nor anti-aging powers? That a True Rune would want its bearer to age a bit in order for the bearer to actually be able to do anything is a bit of a given, but a lot of the True Rune bearers we've seen were in their mid teens and stayed that way ever since they got their True Rune.

Tir didn't change from 1 to 2, Lazlo didn't change from 4 to Tactics, and Luc/Sasarai didn't seem to age from 2 to 3. They just got a haircut and a different art style.
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Icegryphon »

That's exactly what i've been saying. All we know, and all that makes sense is that the true runes grant agelessness.

They don't age you to "peak age" or de-age you to "peak age" they just hold you still in an age sense for all eternity, until you are killed or pass the rune off.
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by JanusThePaladin »

And again i say there is a possibility that they allow you to age, but there is NO possibility that they de-age you. As we all know that Luc and Sasarai had there true runes since birth, and definitely aged.
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Icegryphon »

If this is true, which I will find out as soon as I get to Suiko3 again (soon as I finish Suiko2) then there are many explanations.

But in any case, I'm done arguing with you. It is a futile effort since you have neglected to actually read or understand any of what I've tried to say. So I'm moving on.
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by JanusThePaladin »

Wow. So you're going to insult me and then say you're done so if i try to continue the argument I'm the lesser man. Oh well. The question in this thread has been answered, so theres really no point in going on.

People stop aging when they are given a True Rune (or atleast to a certain age)

Ted aged because he gave his rune to the Guide, and this WAS an original idea by Konami and was not a Retcon or an accident.

Luc and Sasarai are a different subject altogether!
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by LanceHeart »

JanusThePaladin wrote:And again i say there is a possibility that they allow you to age, but there is NO possibility that they de-age you. As we all know that Luc and Sasarai had there true runes since birth, and definitely aged.
I fail to see how this is different from what we've both been saying.

Cause: True Rune inhabits a body.
Effect: Body becomes ageless.

We're wondering if the True Runes allow their bearer to age at LEAST to a point where their bearer can actually protect itself. Considering how so many bearers are around 15-17 when they get their rune (or have that appearance), one would guess they prefer bearers that can wield them.
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JanusThePaladin
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by JanusThePaladin »

Which is what i am saying. I agree wholeheartedly with that. What i disagree with is the assertion that if they allow you to age they should also be able to de-age you.
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Jeremiah Ecks »

Whoah. Heavy debate, dudes. ;)

This is what we know about the aging stuff with the True Runes:

1) Once you've attached one, you have immortality in regards to aging. We're not saying that you can't age physically, yet, but at least the TRs give you ageless immortality. However, if your head is cut off or something, you're still gonna die. It's just immortality in the Highlander sense.

2) Some characters have True Runes and look the same age they did when they got them - young. Some characters look old. Which seems to imply, at least that some True Runes do not deage a person -- that does not confirm that some TR's don't!

3) Without debate, Leknaat, Windy, Neclord, Yuber, Sierra and factoring in the Fog Ship scenario, Ted, are the only characters who do not noticeably age when possessing a True Rune - Sierra and Neclord being Vampires make it more fudgy.

These are really the only things we know for sure, however. As others have pointed out, Barbarossa didn't seem to have the Sovereign Rune grafted onto his body, but rather on his sword. If his True Rune affected him in an ageless sense, presumably the whole Rugner dynasty would have stayed alive and lived longer, but there's no real evidence to say yes or no here. Barbarossa may have been immortal, but he may have not been.

Now these are debateables:

1) 'Luc & Sasarai age': Maybe they do, maybe they don't. The art styles do change and aren't enough to prove this point... but I have to admit that it does look like they do. Regardless, we don't know anything about their genetics - as Clones in the Suikoden world, they may not work like Clones do in our world. Remember FFVII (I know it's anathema mentioning it on this board. :) )? Cloud is called a 'Sephiroth Clone' but (without spoiling it) that's not technically what ultimately happened. Maybe with Luc and Sasarai it's similar - they may be full on genetic clones, but they don't look exactly like twins, so there's evidence at least that they're not strict clones of Hikusaak and, therefore, making comments on their genetic predispotion is working with unknowns, at best.
Whether Luc and Sasarai age naturally, whether they were born in their current state... we just don't know. Maybe they were farmed to look like 14 year olds and then provided with their True Runes. Maybe they got them as babies and the runes keep growing them and they do change age until SIII. I think which view you take is going to be up to you. I personally prefer the theory that Luc and Sasarai age, but it does throw nature of the immortality of the True Runes into debate - hence this topic - but we can't know for sure either way.

2) 'All True Runes work the same': We presume that all True Runes grant immortality (internally in the games, this is a presumption, but we get a lot of that information externally and therefore assume it's internally correct). Where we presume too much is assuming all True Runes grant immortality in the same way. We've already seen that perhaps in the case of Barbarossa - and maybe whomever weilds the Star Dragon Sword - immortality is probably not bestowed. Probably, but again, it's presumptive to say for certain. But there's nothing to say that, for example, the Soul Eater does grant age-freezing immortality, but the True Elemental Runes (i.e. Fire, Wind, Earth, Water and Lightning) does not - its immortality could work in the sense that it continues to age you to a certain age (maybe 21?) and then keeps you there, in the prime of your life? That's a total guess, and nothing internally or externally confirms that as a theory... but there's nothing really to deny it, either...

3) 'True Runes can deage': No evidence for this at all. Just ask Joshua Levenheit or Neclord (who looks pretty old, and I don't think it's just Vampirism, because Sierra don't look old). However, there's no evidence that this isn't the case with some True Runes - maybe there's a True Rune for Age that can age or deage people. An Immortality Rune, or a Time Rune or something.

So based off - phew - all that general rambling I think all we can say for sure is that True Runes can grant a form of agelessness Immortalism, but with no surety about how that correlates for each Rune or character, and that some characters appear the same age as to when they got the Runes, but some depending on your point of view, don't.

What do you think?

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StalkerPizza
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by StalkerPizza »

I always though the aging thing was just like Heroes' Cell Regeneration; You age up to a point, most likely in 20s or 30s, then you stop aging altogether.
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Jeremiah Ecks
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Jeremiah Ecks »

Makes sense, except Barbarossa Rugner, Joshua Levenheit and Neclord do not look like those ages. The argument maybe comes that the True Runes don't deage, and then that makes perfect sense.

Means that establishing absolutes about these things is going to be nigh impossible.

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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Icegryphon »

The funny thing is I was the one who brought up de-aging and not one person actually read what I wrote. I never said it de-aged people, I actually used it as an argument to why I didn't think that they aged people. I said "if they can't de-age, why would they age?" So I really don't know why people keep tossing out the de-aging as a theory when no one presented it as a theory. They don't de-age people, this is a known fact that we've seen time and time again.
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Iesous
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Iesous »

There is another option besides "everyone's either too lazy or too stupid to read." It could be that you just weren't clear enough. This seems the most likely explanation, since no one who posted understood what you intended to say.

Now, to your argument: it is ignoring half of the evidence. You are right in saying that the runes do not de-age a bearer. You might even have good logic that this should mean that the runes can't age a bearer. But however good your logic is, Konami's logic is what matters. And Konami has demonstrated that young True Rune bearers age (S3 Manga concerning Luc and Sasarai). I believe that in some form they have even stated that True runes allow (or possibly make) their bearers to age to some physically mature stage.

However, there is a logical answer to your question/argument. There is a difference between growth and aging, and it's scientific. (If you say that we shouldn't even try to compare to real life, then there's really no reason to continue the discussion. There has to be some basis for discussion.) Growth occurs as cells divide and you have two perfectly identical cells. Aging occurs after cells have divided so many times that the ends of the chromosomes have become exposed and cannot reproduce anymore. People therefore become older and older (not just the passage of time, but cellular aging) as more and more cells die.

Therefore, if Suikoden generally follows the laws of physics and biology, the True Runes should allow for cellular reproduction - growth. However, they do not have the power of cellular creation. Therefore, they cannot de-age people, but children can grow to an optimum age. Their ability to grant immortality/agelessness is really the ability to preserve the ends of the chromosomes in a person's cells so that cellular reproduction is continued and aging (cellular death) is put off.

Now if science and Konami's own statements and creative production can't convince you, I don't know what can.
Last edited by Iesous on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: True Runes, Soul Eater, and Ted

Post by Icegryphon »

I don't recall saying anything about lazy or stupid.
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