[Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calculator

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KFCrispy
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[Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calculator

Postby KFCrispy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:35 am

so similar to my Chrono Trigger damage calculator sheet, i've put together a Suikoden III stat chart & physical damage calculator: click here

the stats use the expected values of the characters at level 61. i also didn't calculate HP.. maybe i'll do it in the future if ppl are interested. For the first 2 levels, I assumed the characters gain the highest values since we don't know the % chance of getting higher or lower values.

Max Swings: these were taken from our Swings in-depth guide, but i'd really like to test Aila, Bright, Duke, Lulu, and maybe some others further. i confirmed Sharon can only get 2 swings, which is kinda sad because her swing bar is so close to allowing for a third hit - but boosting speed beyond 220 with Wind Hat, Blood Armor, 3 Feather Earrings, and a Gale Rune wasn't budging it at all!

Unites: I didn't include the 4 and 5 person unites, and there are 2 special-formula unites that I basically left blank. The Gadget Unite uses Gadget's max hp, so that can be done if i add in everyone's HP at level 61.. the Wizard unite is mysterious and i might test what influences it in the future, but i probably can't figure out how the damage formula actually works.
But the fun thing i learned is that when you use all possible rune slots for Double-Edge, Fury, and Warrior (in that order) and learn the Damage skill, the Child and Best Effort unites do quite impressive damage, although both Melville and Alanis are pretty much already glass cannons; giving them both Double-Strike is pretty suicidal, and you'd also have to configure Alanis for physical damage instead of magic-- but the trade off is that the Child unite can pull off a whopping ~7400 dmg. it's possible you would want to give Alanis a Balance Rune instead of Warrior to prevent unbalance (and Sgt Joe can do the same for the Mounted unite), but i'm not sure much will survive the first round with a high-offense team. Best Effort normally won't be that great, but when it criticals, it'll be out the Mounted unite (which I found to be the strongest 2-person unite, beating out the highly-regarded Condemnation!).

Critical hit rates: i commented on that here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11967

last updated: 9/3/10

eldrasidar
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby eldrasidar » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:07 pm

pretty sure Bright maxes at 2 swings. Duke maxes out at 1 swing. I remember testing this to compare him, Futch and Edge. Edge and Futch just have substantially better natural speed. Both Duke and Bright have the problem of being in the 2nd lowest speed growth tier, so at the end of the day, there isn't much that can be done to help them, particularly Bright, as the only aid you can give him is a single gale rune, and possibly the Top Commander Appointment, although, I'm guessing you want to avoid using that, since only one character can have that at a time, whilst nearly everyone could have a gale rune(in principle at least).

I think Aila is correct at two swings. I'm surprised Lulu only has 2 swings, given his high speed growth, light weapon weight, and natural B+ in swing. He should be able to get at least 3 swings, given that there are several other characters with similar or worse stats that do get 3, like Lucia, Ayame, Nash and others. The problem of course here being, while it might be possible to get Lulu to have three swings, he still dies before it makes any substantial difference, and if you spent the time trying to level him up to a point where he had three swings, there is something seriously wrong.

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:43 pm

well i have codebreaker for enabling Lulu and Jimba, but i took that 2 swing info from our max swings guide.. i will definitely check that out later when i use the code to add them in.

eldrasidar
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby eldrasidar » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:57 pm

while I don't have a codebreaker, I do got some maths skills. I'd estimate that Lulu should get his third swing around level 40 give or take 4 levels(whenever he gets about 120 spd), based on how he gains spd, and when Toppo and Nash, who are slower chars with the same weapon weight and identical or worse swing skills, gain their third swing. the only thing I can see stopping him from getting 4 swings is his swing skill, which, if it were 1 level higher, would grant him a 4th swing. raising his speed might help, however, going past 160 spd won't do anything for him(according to the multiple swings guide), so if he doesn't have 4 swings then, he never will.

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:20 am

i noticed a problem when you try to sort the dmg config sheet.. will update it tonight.

eldrasidar
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby eldrasidar » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:16 pm

I take Duke back, he should be able to get a 2nd swing, but only with a gale rune, as there is no other reliable way for him to get his speed up past 150 which is when Futch (who has the same weapon and swing skill) gets his second swing. alternatively, if you lucky enough to happen to get his natural speed up past 120(normally this happens somewhere around level 91) you could use blood armor and wind hat to bring it over 150.

The gale rune actually is probably the only way(possibly also using speed raising equipment and the Top Commander Appointment) to make most of the one hit wonders get a second swing, except for Shiba and Nicolas, who cannot equip it. with just normal equipment, most of these characters can only boost their speed by 30 points. which still leaves them below the 150-180 speed they need to make that second swing.

The gale rune however is unlikely to help most people with two swings naturally, since most second swings come around speed 140-150, and speed stops effecting swings fairly soon after, depending on the characters swing skill, so the adding of 70-75 points of speed would be rarely more effective then just adding 30 points from equipment, given that anyone with a C in swing stops being effected by speed at 180

If a character has 3 or more natural swings, the gale rune is completely useless, since the character's last natural swing comes in pretty much right when their speed no longer continues to improve their swing time. At this point a higher swing skill is all that can improve the number of swings, although for everyone who isn't augustine, the only option for this is the Top Commander Appointment, which only improves it by 1 rank.

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:22 pm

yeah i figured a Gale would work but our guide doesn't allow for Gale and only equipment. thanks again eldrasidar!
i did think Gale adds a 4th or 5th attack to Hugo who naturally gets around 3, but i'll need to check it out later.

eldrasidar
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby eldrasidar » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:42 am

You know hugo has a natural 4th swing right? so it's a matter of getting to a fifth swing, which isn't going to happen from more speed. Moreover, it's a waste of a rune slot. In terms of doing more damage, a Gale rune is always less effective than double strike. However many characters, take too much damage as result of the double strike rune. So then compare with the Fury rune which multiplies the damage by 1.5. If the gale rune brings the number of attacks from 1 to 2, it is more effective than fury(+75%, rather than +50%). If the Gale rune brings the number of attacks from 2 to 3, though it is far less effective(+32%, rather than +50%), using gale to go from 3 to 4 attacks wouldn't even be half as effective as Fury (only +24%, rather +50%). At this point, competent Sword of Magic wielders will be more effective, as will Heavy Damage characters with Killer, and some chars with high REP and Warrior. Hugo would definitely be better off just using fury.

So in summary:
A: Gale should only be used on somebody you want fighting, but you don't want to use double strike with(lightly armed/low HP/non mage chars)
B: Gale should only be the primary rune on single strike chars to give them a second swing, as Fury is better on anyone else.
C: Gale should only be a secondary rune on characters with 2 natural swings at an low speed(sub 130), and without the Heavy Damage, Sword of Magic, Continuous Attack, or a high REP otherwise Warrior, Sword of Magic, or Killer is better.

This pretty much narrows it down to about two characters worth equipping a gale rune to: Bazba and Dupa.

one thing to highlight from the in depth swing guide:

As the speed stat increases, the swing time decreases. The rate at this affects the swing time changes by weapon weight; A person in the weapon weight group "01" will start to swing fast enough to get two swings at a SPD stat of 90 without the swing skill, while someone in the group "03" will get two swings at SPD of 97, while someone in the group "12" will not get a second swing with no swing rank at any speed.

SPD ceases to affect the swing time after a certain SPD stat is reached. The exact number in question changes as the Swing skill is raised. The swing-affecting SPD maxes given in this table have a margin of error of five points each way for all of them - what it means is that at no swing skill, each character will reach a minimum swing time somewhere inbetween 215 and 225 SPD, and the swing time cannot be decreased any more by the SPD stat after that.

Skill Level No Swing E D C B B+ A A+ S
SPD Max 220 220 200 180 180 160 160 135 115

the higher number of swing chars have a combination of light weapon weight, high swings skills and high speed growths, on these characters, a gale rune adds an absurd amount of speed, which then becomes useless as it probably well overshoots their maximum useful speed, when you could use equipment to get right to that point without wasting a rune slot or having wasted speed.

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:39 am

yeah i'm pretty sure i was getting those extra hits with Hugo's Gale Rune early on, because his SPD stat wasn't near the max potential yet. so Gale is almost useless in the end, but it's helpful early on, especially while you don't have other runes available.

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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:14 pm

lulu is not getting a 3rd swing until his SPD becomes over 144. i have it at 144 right now (he's level 54) and he will have a 3rd swing with a Taikyoku Tunic (154)... it could be hard finding the exact number.
our Swings guide says he has the same weapon weight as Nash, who has the same max swing (B+).. Nash gets his third at 131, so it seems his weapon weight is different. (maybe Chris' weapon weight?)

UPDATE: Lulu's magic number is 151 for a 3rd swing. So Lulu's stats match Lilly's... the weapon growth also matches that of Lilly's. i think i should move his weapon weight to her class.

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:37 am

another argument to use Gale to add an extra swing is if the character has a good Freeze skill or critical hit rate. extra attacks give an extra chance to stun/paralyze or critical.. when you're dealing with Golems with high PDF, critical hits and magic are the only way to deal major damage.

eldrasidar
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby eldrasidar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:37 pm

I mean yes, but here's who gets Freeze as a skill: Aila, Bazba, Dupa, Fubar, Geddoe, Kogoro, Landis, Reed, and Ruby. you rarely use Fubar or Ruby without Hugo or Franz, who negate the extra attack, since mounts only get one. Dupa can't apparently equip any Runes. Gale wont help anyone except Bazba or maybe Kogoro get another attack, everyone else needs the top commander appointment to gain one. For people with a Heavy Damage, a Killer rune is going to as good or better, as all but one get more than 1 attack naturally, and since the max critical improvement from an extra swing is another 25%(50%) with an S rank, while the killer rune adds 50% to both critical and triple critical. the Gale Rune would only be of great use to Duke in this case, but I'd still rather have the killer rune.

Again, Gale only would help these characters as they are developing, once they get to the fifties, the Gale rune pretty much has no effect.

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:49 pm

oh yeah i keep forget Gale Runes don't add another attack for a lot of characters once their SPD is high enough.

knight85
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby knight85 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:19 am

what program do you use to open the spreadsheet?

all i'm seeing is xml files

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Level 61 expected stats & Physical Damage calcul

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:15 pm

It's the newer Excel 2007 format. Microsoft offers a free compatibility tool that convert it for the older software.


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